What Jazz are you listening to now?

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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4081

    Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
    The materials from the album epitomise for me the transition between hard bop and modal taking place in some quarters by 1961, which was to be one of the hallmarks of Blue Note jazz as the decade progressed further, providing inspiration for those seeking a "middle way" between changes and the greater freedoms offered by modalism. Having provided excellent, at times angular springboarding challenges that expand blues forms Nelson is really odd-man-out in the solo order: I don't know of any follow-up to his eccentric quest to find a new direction there. So for me, Freddie Hubbard, Bill Evans and Eric Dolphy are the stars of the piece: Hubbard plays as well as anywhere at that time; Evans copes creatively with the absence of the specific kind of interactivity he had been evolving with Motian and La Faro; and what more can be said other than to describe Dolphy's work here as superlative. It is Dolphy's challenge to the others and absence that detracts from the follow-up, pleasant enough though it is.
    I would have to disagree a bit with these comments. It is not one of my favourite albums and is pretty atypical for Oliver Nelson. I believe that some of his earlier records were more in the "Soul Jazz" vein whereas he was primarily a big band arranger. You can hear quite a bit of his stuff where he provided the arrangements for records by the likes of Jimmy Smith and Wes Montgomery which tend to be pretty "populist" and the easy going nature of the charts was to the detriment to Nelson's reputation as a "serious" writer. I think he is actually quite under-rated. The only big band record that I am aware of on Blue Note is the excellent "Joyride" where Nelson wrote the arrangements for a Stanley Turrentine gospel-inspired set which is unjustly over-looking and includes some excellent piano from Herbie Hancock. There are also records made under his own name which are far more ambitious and hint towards Third Stream jazz which maybe demonstrate that there were more strings to his bow than most people realise. If you like, these charts are more "serious" in their scope and more interesting than the "funky" stuff he composed.

    Regarding "BATAT" the whole album for me is essentially about three things. The first if Nelson's writing for a small ensemble which is hugely distinctive and the second the crispness of the ensemble, especially the rhythm section. I would tend to agree with SA's assessment although I would tend not to malign Nelson's contributions. There are no solos from the baritone saxophonist as I believe that he could not improvise and was brought in to add depth to the ensemble largely because of Nelson's admiration for his as a musician. The "problem" with Freddie Hubbard around the early sixties is that you cannot easily single one recording out as his "masterpiece." He was extremely consistent around this time and just seemed to churn out one exception performance out on record after the other. That said, I still think that Dolphy was the star of the show and by a country mile. He is by far the most interesting thing about the record and the record seems to shift up a gear when he solos. What I do find interesting is the performance by Bill Evans because he made so few records with larger from lines. For me he is the odd man out on this record and it fascinates me listening to his playing behind Dolphy because I always feel that the pianist is struggling with Dolphy's concept, especially from a rhythmic point of view. It would have been more "appropriate" to have had a player like Herbie Hancock on board but this record predates his rise to fame and perhaps Nelson felt that Evans was the best option. This record is perhaps the studio session with Dolphy that I like the most as it is rather like the sessions Benny Goodman made with Charlie Christian or Coleman Hawkin's work with Fletcher Henderson insofar that it features one soloist whose concept is considerably in advance of his colleagues. I find these scenarios fascinating but the challenge thrown down to Bill Evans on this record certainly adds another edge to this record.

    Nelson's big band writing is extremely recognisable and very redolent of the 1960's but maybe he needs to be reconsidered as he is celebrated largely for "TBATAT" and a serious of records featuring stellar soloists that were perhaps made for an audience beyond jazz. This performance might come as a surprise if this is all you are aware of regarding Nelson's work;-



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    • Beef Oven!
      Ex-member
      • Sep 2013
      • 18147

      Originally posted by Stanfordian View Post
      It's on YouTube, or at least some of the album is! I'm not sure Oliver Nelson rose to such heights again on record!
      Thanks Stan. YouTube must wait as I'm on my summer break and on the move a lot, and I need to save my roaming package for more essential things!

      However, I've found it on iTunes so a listen over the weekend is on the cards.

      Comment

      • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 4247

        The Abstract Truth baritone saxophonist is George Barrow who was in fact a very fine (mostly tenor) player/soloist with Mingus etc and many others, plus sessions . The Cafe Bohemia date with Mal Waldron for starters. Freddie Hubbard is on record as saying he could barely hear Bill Evans behind him.

        Nelson also did the Straight Ahead date with just him and Dolphy, interesting contrast for both. There was a very good (LONG)thread on Organissimo about a year ago in which the moderator (who plays saxophone himself) went through every single Oliver Nelson date, player, arranger, composer, in some critical detail. Really worth looking at for a SERIOUS overview.

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        • Stanfordian
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 9286

          ‘A Blowin' Session’
          Johnny Griffin, John Coltrane, Hank Mobley, Lee Morgan, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers & Art Blakey
          Blue Note (1957)

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          • Serial_Apologist
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 37314

            Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
            I would have to disagree a bit with these comments.
            Actually, I think we're pretty much in agreement there, Ian. I havent listened to Blues & The Abstract Truth for quite a long while, if the "truth" be known, and I must have a listen to Bill Evans's approach where he's backing Dolphy.

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            • Stanfordian
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 9286

              ‘Seven Steps to Heaven’
              Miles Davis with George Coleman, Herbie Hancock/Victor Feldman, Ron Carter, & Tony Williams/Frank Butler
              Columbia (rec. 1963)

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              • Beef Oven!
                Ex-member
                • Sep 2013
                • 18147

                Andrew Hill - Black Fire
                Released April 1964 Bluenote

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                • Serial_Apologist
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 37314

                  Originally posted by Stanfordian View Post
                  ‘Seven Steps to Heaven’
                  Miles Davis with George Coleman, Herbie Hancock/Victor Feldman, Ron Carter, & Tony Williams/Frank Butler
                  Columbia (rec. 1963)
                  The title track theme of which always strikes me as having been Miles's last-ever visit to bebop territory; tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe he ever returned to it after that date.

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                  • Stanfordian
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 9286

                    Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                    The title track theme of which always strikes me as having been Miles's last-ever visit to bebop territory; tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe he ever returned to it after that date.
                    Well, I'm no jazz expert. I just play what I like.

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                    • Stanfordian
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 9286

                      ‘Most Much!’
                      Jimmy Forrest with Tommy Potter, Hugh Lawson, Clarence Johnson & Ray Barretto
                      Prestige (1961)

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                      • Joseph K
                        Banned
                        • Oct 2017
                        • 7765

                        Groovin' High - Keith Jarrett Trio

                        Provided to YouTube by UMGGroovin' High · Keith Jarrett TrioWhisper Not℗ 2000 ECM Records GmbH, under exclusive license to Universal Music Classics & Jazz - ...

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                        • Serial_Apologist
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 37314

                          Originally posted by Stanfordian View Post
                          Well, I'm no jazz expert. I just play what I like.
                          I think that's what is known as "a discongruent reply", Stan!

                          Comment

                          • Stanfordian
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 9286

                            Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                            I think that's what is known as "a discongruent reply", Stan!
                            It's true. I know nothing about Jazz and don't mind admitting it! That I should think is a most extremely congruent reply. I assure you my choice of Jazz to play is not based on any Jazz knowledge.
                            Last edited by Stanfordian; 09-08-18, 13:41.

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                            • Stanfordian
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 9286


                              ‘A Blowin' Session’

                              Johnny Griffin, John Coltrane, Hank Mobley, Lee Morgan, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers & Art Blakey
                              Blue Note (1957)

                              Comment

                              • Joseph K
                                Banned
                                • Oct 2017
                                • 7765

                                Turns out Keith Jarrett had recorded all these bop tunes …

                                Bouncin’ With Bud - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpNtkC0ZO7A

                                Plus a few different takes on 'Scrapple from the Apple' are on youtube...

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