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I actually agree with a good proportion of what you are saying. Weather Report were probably more influential in the UK than the US but I would also add that the band had a bearing on European groups like "Colours" too. Since seeing Wayne Shorter for the first time in 2001, I have really started to appreciate his music more and more. From a small band perspective, he is probably the most original writer in jazz after Herbie Nichols and like the pianist, seemed to have grasped the point about the need to look at unusual forms and bizarre chord progressions. He is a really terrific improviser too and the combination of these two elements is fascinating. Even at his least inspiring fusion worst, there is an intelligence in his music. Given what he has produced within the last twenty years and his legacy in the 1960's, it does seem to me that he under-achieved after the demise of Weather Report and maybe was less than compelling during the latter stages if that group's existence.
I must admit that I was getting in to jazz at the point when Weather Report were considered to be pretty naff. Listening to jazz in the early 80'sonwards, Shorter's stock was pretty low at that time and the emergence of younger players like Wynton Marsalis all of a sudden woke people up to how over-produced jazz had become by the late 70's. I discussed jazz just as fusion was on it's last legs and the re-awakening of the music's creativity in the mid 80's spelt the death knell for bands like Weather Report. As a teenager getting in to the new jazz of that time, I would not be caught dead listening to something as passe as Weather Report. I can well remember Zawinul cropping up as a judge on a jazz talent competition on BBC 2 where Andy Sheppard came second to Martin Speake's "Itchy Fingers" and Jazz Journal being full of letters along the lines of Zawinul being a "non-entity." I grew up in this environment where Weather Report were too modern for my Dad but not hip enough for me. Their music largely eluded me for a long while like a lot of fusion and jazz-rock. I was not old enough to appreciate the music Weather Report evolved from especially as I dived straight in to the then contemporary scene when I was old enough to drive myself to gigs. Back then, I was more enthusiastic about hearing either older generation players whose music I had grown up with (Lionel Hampton, Jay McShann, Buddy Tate, etc) or players like Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Jan Garbarek, who presented something new and different.
You are spot on as how Zawinul influenced bands like Loose Tubes and it is possible to go back to the Weather Report records and see there is a degree of musical intelligence within the music. I am certainly alot more positive about this band than I would have been earlier even though I think the whole fusion / Jazz-Rock thing was frequently a musical horror show - as bad in it's way as some of the more commercial big bands of the 1930's and 40's such as Harry James, Glenn Miller, Jimmy Dorsey, etc who also seemed to frequently combine high levels of musicianship with questionable taste. So much of this stuff now sounds hopelessly dated or simply twee. For me, it was a definite low-point in jazz but salvaged by some musicians like Hancock and Shorter who were capable of ensuring a high degree of musical output. Others like John McLaughlin have continued to remain elusive in their appeal. Others like Barbara Thompson who you mention seem symptomatic of their time - agreeable enough to listen to but like a more interesting version of the music you used to get on the BBC test card. Paraphernalia have been really poorly served by the passage of time and "of the era" in a way that you described Geraldo. Not a fan in the remotest sense of either. In trying to be too modish, many of these fusion bands now sound hopelessly dated. I grant that you will have a different opinion and I am sure that anyone coming to jazz in the two decades before me will certainly look at these groups with more favour than I do. I had been interesting listening to some old records from the early 80's such as Billy Bang and Andrew Hill on some Soul Note records I have picked up in the last 12 months. They have not dated because they never really tried to be too fashionable. There is an integrity in this music which is often absent from a lot of fusion.
You mention composers like Lizst which is interesting because his approach is not too dissimilar to a lot of jazz rock. In the hands of other composers like Alkan, you just get the technique before music results which is so typical of jazz-rock whereas the whole Romantic idea of "picture-painting" in music is yet anther pitfall fusion seemed to fall into. From a point of view of Weather Report alone, I have more sympathy for Zawinul than I previously had whereas Jaco seems totally over-rated even though I am very appreciative that his was the name that people approaching this band from rock music always latch on to.
What I don't hear in Weather Report is the notion of Zawinul and Shorter swapping ideas. Maybe this happened within earlier incarnations of the band . Instead, the band seems to really be a small group trying to perform like a big band, the horns and reeds replaced by Zawinul's bank of keyboards. Given Zawinul's great affection for Duke Ellington, maybe this should not be a surprise. For me, this is perhaps the more interesting element within Weather Report's music. Returning to other bands like Horace Silver's groups, it is fascinating to see that for all the supposed lack of freedom in big band jazz ( which I totally disagree with), many small bands took a lot from the writing of large ensembles to make their arrangements more interesting. Not sure just how much Silver was listening to say Basie's second testament band when the pianist was writing his charts. I am sure that Zawinul had Ellington in mind when composing his though. Personally, I find the whole concept of jazz composition to be of immense interest. The idea of writing fascinates me, whether it is someone like Duke Ellington or Fletcher Henderson and right through to people like John Hollenbeck today. Traditionally, small bands have been there to offer jazz musicians more freedom to express themselves but this seems a bit of a cliché. Some of the more interesting small groups have relied on writing going back from the likes of Jelly Roll Morton and John Kirby and through to bands like the MJQ. Today there are composers like Alan Ferber who have developed writing for smaller groups to a fine art. Weather Report just seem part of the tradition.
I actually agree with a good proportion of what you are saying. Weather Report were probably more influential in the UK than the US but I would also add that the band had a bearing on European groups like "Colours" too. Since seeing Wayne Shorter for the first time in 2001, I have really started to appreciate his music more and more. From a small band perspective, he is probably the most original writer in jazz after Herbie Nichols and like the pianist, seemed to have grasped the point about the need to look at unusual forms and bizarre chord progressions. He is a really terrific improviser too and the combination of these two elements is fascinating. Even at his least inspiring fusion worst, there is an intelligence in his music. Given what he has produced within the last twenty years and his legacy in the 1960's, it does seem to me that he under-achieved after the demise of Weather Report and maybe was less than compelling during the latter stages if that group's existence.
I must admit that I was getting in to jazz at the point when Weather Report were considered to be pretty naff. Listening to jazz in the early 80'sonwards, Shorter's stock was pretty low at that time and the emergence of younger players like Wynton Marsalis all of a sudden woke people up to how over-produced jazz had become by the late 70's. I discussed jazz just as fusion was on it's last legs and the re-awakening of the music's creativity in the mid 80's spelt the death knell for bands like Weather Report. As a teenager getting in to the new jazz of that time, I would not be caught dead listening to something as passe as Weather Report. I can well remember Zawinul cropping up as a judge on a jazz talent competition on BBC 2 where Andy Sheppard came second to Martin Speake's "Itchy Fingers" and Jazz Journal being full of letters along the lines of Zawinul being a "non-entity." I grew up in this environment where Weather Report were too modern for my Dad but not hip enough for me. Their music largely eluded me for a long while like a lot of fusion and jazz-rock. I was not old enough to appreciate the music Weather Report evolved from especially as I dived straight in to the then contemporary scene when I was old enough to drive myself to gigs. Back then, I was more enthusiastic about hearing either older generation players whose music I had grown up with (Lionel Hampton, Jay McShann, Buddy Tate, etc) or players like Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Jan Garbarek, who presented something new and different.
You are spot on as how Zawinul influenced bands like Loose Tubes and it is possible to go back to the Weather Report records and see there is a degree of musical intelligence within the music. I am certainly alot more positive about this band than I would have been earlier even though I think the whole fusion / Jazz-Rock thing was frequently a musical horror show - as bad in it's way as some of the more commercial big bands of the 1930's and 40's such as Harry James, Glenn Miller, Jimmy Dorsey, etc who also seemed to frequently combine high levels of musicianship with questionable taste. So much of this stuff now sounds hopelessly dated or simply twee. For me, it was a definite low-point in jazz but salvaged by some musicians like Hancock and Shorter who were capable of ensuring a high degree of musical output. Others like John McLaughlin have continued to remain elusive in their appeal. Others like Barbara Thompson who you mention seem symptomatic of their time - agreeable enough to listen to but like a more interesting version of the music you used to get on the BBC test card. Paraphernalia have been really poorly served by the passage of time and "of the era" in a way that you described Geraldo. Not a fan in the remotest sense of either. In trying to be too modish, many of these fusion bands now sound hopelessly dated. I grant that you will have a different opinion and I am sure that anyone coming to jazz in the two decades before me will certainly look at these groups with more favour than I do. I had been interesting listening to some old records from the early 80's such as Billy Bang and Andrew Hill on some Soul Note records I have picked up in the last 12 months. They have not dated because they never really tried to be too fashionable. There is an integrity in this music which is often absent from a lot of fusion.
You mention composers like Lizst which is interesting because his approach is not too dissimilar to a lot of jazz rock. In the hands of other composers like Alkan, you just get the technique before music results which is so typical of jazz-rock whereas the whole Romantic idea of "picture-painting" in music is yet anther pitfall fusion seemed to fall into. From a point of view of Weather Report alone, I have more sympathy for Zawinul than I previously had whereas Jaco seems totally over-rated even though I am very appreciative that his was the name that people approaching this band from rock music always latch on to.
What I don't hear in Weather Report is the notion of Zawinul and Shorter swapping ideas. Maybe this happened within earlier incarnations of the band . Instead, the band seems to really be a small group trying to perform like a big band, the horns and reeds replaced by Zawinul's bank of keyboards. Given Zawinul's great affection for Duke Ellington, maybe this should not be a surprise. For me, this is perhaps the more interesting element within Weather Report's music. Returning to other bands like Horace Silver's groups, it is fascinating to see that for all the supposed lack of freedom in big band jazz ( which I totally disagree with), many small bands took a lot from the writing of large ensembles to make their arrangements more interesting. Not sure just how much Silver was listening to say Basie's second testament band when the pianist was writing his charts. I am sure that Zawinul had Ellington in mind when composing his though. Personally, I find the whole concept of jazz composition to be of immense interest. The idea of writing fascinates me, whether it is someone like Duke Ellington or Fletcher Henderson and right through to people like John Hollenbeck today. Traditionally, small bands have been there to offer jazz musicians more freedom to express themselves but this seems a bit of a cliché. Some of the more interesting small groups have relied on writing going back from the likes of Jelly Roll Morton and John Kirby and through to bands like the MJQ. Today there are composers like Alan Ferber who have developed writing for smaller groups to a fine art. Weather Report just seem part of the tradition.
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