So what is the considered view of Weather Report then from the perspective of 2015?

[Old Grumpy]

Ah, I recall that thread now. I guess what I have in mind is the criticism from jazz fans that a lot of jazz in the 21st Century doesn't swing. I just wonder whether there is sometimes an absence of thrilling innovation too. This does run in parallel with other genres including world music. Is there anything to be said for Weather Report being the last great innovators, notwithstanding the fact that were essentially fusion as Ian says? I worked my way through perhaps 50 or 60 releases in each of the years 2012-2014 based on several "best of" lists. I have an awareness of Harris Eisenstadt, The Bad Plus etc. I tend to prefer jazz made prior to the early 1980s. Unlike in many other areas, that hasn't much to do with nostalgia.

Nothing wrong with fusion IMV...


... fission is so last centuary!

OG

[Lat-Literal]

Nothing wrong with fusion IMV...


... fission is so last centuary!

OG

The official recommendation - mine - is R3 should do a series - Alyn - on the 50 key albums since 1980 by artists who have emerged since 1980. And do it "widely". Cheers.

[Old Grumpy]

Thank you Ian and Serial_Apologist. I am essentially looking for bearings although I welcome a wide ranging discussion. Many of the references in your post, S_A are somewhat meaningful to me. McLaughlin, Corea, Braxton and for that matter Henry Cow as well as the Jazz Warriors - one album I think - and the Headhunters. But whenever accessing jazz, I am most likely to go to obvious earlier reference points when not searching even further back in time - Monk, Coleman, Brubeck, Tracey, Davis, Ra, Coltrane, etc and all with the possible exception of Ra speak unequivocally of jazz to me. I could also talk with ease about the dates of their key releases. All had/have the capacity to be memorable/thrilling.

Somewhere in the late 1970s or early 1980s, a record executive chucked a dozen albums freely in my direction. One was Chuck Mangione's "Journey to a Rainbow". That album was pleasant in places but none of those albums were jazz including that one. There was Working Week in the early-mid 1980s. I believe I saw someone called Carmel at Ronnie Scotts. Pat Metheney, of course, who by the end of that decade I was listening to a fair bit as he was very much the favoured listening of a rock-ish band I knew, the only one I ever partially managed. Fast-forward to the 1990s and I am sitting in a work meeting and I am chatting to a guy in the break who says to me he is a huge jazz fan. I ask him what he is listening to at present and he tells me he will bring in something as it is utterly fantastic. It turns out to be Bill Frisell. Now I happen to like Metheney and Frisell because I don't mind a bit of "new age" and some of their stuff, in my humble opinion, veers mighty close to it. The first two names I mentioned were fair too but they were one moment wonders - essentially popular artists who were hyped up to be something else. There were, of course, in that era Marsalis, Marsalis and Mehldau as well as Pine and all felt ever so slightly "marketed". I like Pavarotti but even I drew out when it became the big industry that was The Three Tenors. Just in the nature of the promotion itself, none of it really grabbed.

Long before Zawinul was deemed to be so significant he merited a place in the Proms and "Black Market" was being covered on a significant World Music album, it was impossible to escape the name Gregory Porter and then shortly afterwards Robert Fonseca. Is it me or is the singing on Porter's albums very unexceptional while Fonseca is cocktail Cuban at best? So I go to Vijay Ayer who is covering Michael Jackson and not in any way as memorable as Kirk "did" Bill Withers and the aforementioned Eisenstadt who is glacial and glacial is cool enough. But while he is undoubtedly more "jazz" than the Portico Quartet he is either innovating beyond my understanding or not doing so much at all. If Weather Report led to a lot of what we have now, what was it exactly and how broad a range? Quite a lot of what I have often expected to thrill sounds like a bit of a disappointing racket. Neneh Cherry and The Thing were not for me or, it seems, very many other people judging by the sales. Of course, there are mainstays who make a lot more sense - Wheeler etc - and good luck to them. But I suppose I am looking for (a) modern jazz as jazz so I know what jazz is these days (b) the innovative and the genuine thrilling and (c) elements of fusion or crossover with musicality. I quite like Django Bates actually and also Jason Garchik but everything just seems so nebulous. I'm still looking for a road map re the here and now. It isn't criticism, this, or a deliberate damp squib but more a sense of frustration at just not being easily able to see the key locations in modern terms from which then to roam.

Lat, a lot of the names you mention in the post above may not be considered jazz by jazz-purists, doesn't mean they don't produce good music! Like you I rate both Weather Report and Zawinul, though some of it may not be considered jazz by some,

OG

[Lat-Literal]

Lat, a lot of the names you mention in the post above may not be considered jazz by jazz-purists, doesn't mean they don't produce good music! Like you I rate both Weather Report and Zawinul, though some of it may not be considered jazz by some,

OG

Thanks OG.

[Old Grumpy]

Lat-lit

Check out "Weather Report - Live in Berlin 1975 - CD and DVD. Also Weather Report - Live in Offenbach 1978 - double CD.


OG

[Ian Thumwood]

I think the idea of the 50 Greatest jazz albums by new artists since 1980 would be a brilliant programme but surely insufficient to cover the incredible range of jazz in the last 35 years? What would be revealing, I think, would be the absence of anything influenced or derived from Weather Report.

Years ago there was a review in the French "Jazz Hot" magazine of essential "Fusion" records and a good proportion of the music reflected in the list seemed not to be "Fusion" in my opinion. I recall John Abercrombie featuring a lot which was really strange as his playing has always had more jazz sensitivity than someone like John McLaughlin is I feel is often guilty of shredding. I agree totally regarding the "marketing" angle on music as this can be off-putting and tend to make me feel sceptical although not in the case with Wynton Marsalis or Brad Mehldau, both of who are great musicians even if I am now no longer quite as enthusiastic as I once might have been. Having seen Gregory Porter perform live, I would have to say that he is pretty talented too and certainly deserves the hype.

Back in the early 2000's I bumped in to a woman whilst I was in Vienne and she was there to get ideas for her own jazz festival in Belgian. At the time Nu Jazz was extremely popular and her comment has always resonated with me insofar that she saw this as a way for teenagers / twenty-something's to get into jazz, especially as players like Sonny Rollins (who was appearing that year) would have no meaning for them. It was a really interesting conversation as the woman who was probably a bit younger than me saw the need to book artists that would attract an audience and recognised that building up an audience for the future would be more reliant on creating a pool of musicians who the audience could attach to and follow in to the future. The problem was that the names she mentioned were all particularly fashionable at the time and they still remain fringe artists as opposed to genuine "movers and shakers." For me, this is the big failing on Fusion / electronica, etc, etc insofar that the music is so intrinsically linked to popular musical trends that it dates almost immediately so that it is almost impossible to build a consistent body of identifiable work in the way that someone working within the jazz mainstream / big band / avant garde / Improv scenes can do. They are always chasing shadows. Much of the problem is also due to the technology available to work with so that whilst it may have seemed to be cool to have a lap top on stage in 2001, it is quickly replaced by new technology. Dodgy sounding synthesizers are probably the biggest failing.

[Quarky]

But I suppose I am looking for (a) modern jazz as jazz so I know what jazz is these days (b) the innovative and the genuine thrilling and (c) elements of fusion or crossover with musicality. I quite like Django Bates actually and also Jacob Garchik but everything just seems so nebulous. I'm still looking for a road map re the here and now. It isn't criticism, this, or a deliberate damp squib but more a sense of frustration at just not being easily able to see the key locations in modern terms from which then to roam.

Lat-Lit, you are clearly more knowledgeable than I, but I have been going through a similar exercise over the past few years.

Back to the roots, Man! That is the lesson I take from my (sporadic) researches. Listen to Jazz Record Requests, and prior to that Jazz Library. Alyn is just as likely to examine in great detail recordings by King Oliver, Lester Young, Armstrong, as more modern artists. The emphasis seems to be on a historical legacy or database of jazz music played by the jazz greats, comprising recordings, some films, some books, tribute artists etc. That legacy may be how Jazz is defined.

As long as a current Jazz musician is "in-line" with that legacy, or at least elements of that legacy, then he qualifies (may be).

Result is an extremely wide spectrum of music that is played today under the banner of Jazz. Some of the Jazz greats from earlier times are still alive and kicking - Sonny Rollins for example.

Ian and S_A have their fingers on the pulse for what is currently going on in the Jazz scene, but trying to get an overview of matters, are we going through a period of consolidation, where all possible avenues have been explored? I'm thinking of people like Branford Marsalis, who seems to incorporate all the teaching of earlier saxophone greats. However, his music is surprisingly "conventional" (In My Solitude).

[Ian Thumwood]

Oddball

Conventional or not, I think Branford's records will stand the test of time as they are "on message" with regard to where the music is coming from and is demonstrably from the tradition. I find Branford's work to be really good on record but having heard him perform live on a couple of occasions, I would have to say that he would easily fit in to any assessment of essential jazz musicians post-1980. The quartet with "Tain" Watts is hugely impressive.

[Lat-Literal]

Thank you for all of those interesting posts.

I thought that I might post a few clips I do like.

What I feel is that most do have some elements of innovation/excitement but they are also very random.

Consequently, they show how I am hovering around this matter rather than getting to grips with it.

In many ways, I think they support the points in your last post, Ian, especially in your final paragraph.

And I do take your point, Oddball, that it might be best to "major" on the classics and dip into the rest:

Jacob Garchik - The Heavens - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eKWeYaWKz0
Gwilym Simcock - These Are The Good Days - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Q9nQg4JmM
Django Bates - Three Architects Called Gabrielle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYXiA9HxYuA
Samuel Yirga - Ambassel in Box Revisited - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj6d1MLzLNE
Three Trapped Tigers - Untitled 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScRZb_ZCXkM

Harris Eisenstadt - Slow and Steady - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKVrWZCFBgg
Zoe Rahman - Down To Earth - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDiJEQTM8_M
Bill Frisell - Shenandoah - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svzv-YkUzdk
Aziz Sahmaoui/University of Gnawa - Black Market - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knEJzNFUSUE
Barley/Mullova - Woman with the Feathered Hat - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gujw_U0uR5k

I think I am going to make more of a habit of listening to JRR. It is a mixture of the old and new - and there are personal stories from the listeners and some musical/historical background that are attached to the music chosen. Also, on the 50 albums idea, I have essentially taken my cue from the proposed programmes on modern classical composers.

[Ian Thumwood]

I'm generally not fussed with fusion types of jazz but Dave Douglas' "keystone" is one band I do enjoy as the musicality shines through;-

[Quarky]

Thank you for all of those interesting posts.

I thought that I might post a few clips I do like.

What I feel is that most do have some elements of innovation/excitement but they are also very random.

.

The clips show what a big wonderful world it is, with ample scope for innovation and excitement. Not sure if they are completely random, emphasis perhaps on keyboards and Weather Report.

A pity there aren't more Jazz fusion aficionados on this Forum.

[Lat-Literal]

The clips show what a big wonderful world it is, with ample scope for innovation and excitement. Not sure if they are completely random, emphasis perhaps on keyboards and Weather Report.

A pity there aren't more Jazz fusion aficionados on this Forum.

That's a fantastic post - very many thanks.

[Serial_Apologist]

A pity there aren't more Jazz fusion aficionados on this Forum.

There was rather a lot of dross, it has to be said, though not enough to write the genre off in its entirety imv. The British bands didn't usually slavishly follow the American models, the Canterbury school in particular had a strong sound and identity, having got the thing going before it happened over there.

[Ian]

I have a studio that records quite a bit of jazz - much of which, I think, reveals elements of ‘crossover’ of one sort or another. This is particularly true among the (very) young players.

Here are a couple of examples - although perhaps not that well known - yet?

Snowpoet - Butterflies https://youtu.be/NQmkrIm0hfo

Laura Jurd: DINOSAUR - ‘Hardanger‘ https://youtu.be/m5qCRWR4kTw

[Ian Thumwood]

Ian

I agree with your assessment and I think these samples are really indicative of the way a lot of contemporary jazz is going. I'm afraid I wasn't too fussed with the "Snow poet" set but I like Laura Jurd whose music is extremely interesting. She seems totally in thrall of Dave Douglas , both in the sound of her horn and the style of compositions. You also can hear something similar in the playing of Brad Goode - another contemporary player I like who is influenced by DD. All in all, thumbs up for Laura Jurd which is more informed by jazz than fusion whereas I'll have to pass on the stuff with the vocalist, I'm afraid! I've been more impressed with LJ than Trish Clowes who is popular on this board but a bit tame in my opinion.