Ellington re-boot

[Serial_Apologist]

Sun 23 Feb

http://www.alynshipton.co.uk/blog

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0028203

Mon 23 - Fri 27 Feb

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002821r

Thurs 26 Feb

A story we've been told numerous times, but is arguably worth hearing again if given a fresh twist:

9.30pm Facing the Music - 9/10
Duke Ellington: in Control

Trinidad-born British actor Don Warrington tells a story of a remarkable rebirth, as jazz giant Duke Ellington (1899-1974) - reduced to playing obscure and tawdry gigs for cash in the mid-1950s - spontaneously and joyously sparks his band into life at the 1956 Newport Jazz Festival. With contributions from Tamara Rojo, artistic director of San Francisco Ballet, and Jochen Mnges, Professor of Leadership at the University of Zurich and Cambridge University.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002824y

Don't let anyone tell you long solos put people off jazz....

[Ian Thumwood]

This is something of a myth, especially from an artistic point of view. Ellington's late 1940s LP masterpieces was made when his work.was allegedly in decline. I think.most people now see it as being brilliant.

[Serial_Apologist]

This is something of a myth, especially from an artistic point of view. Ellington's late 1940s LP masterpieces was made when his work.was allegedly in decline. I think.most people now see it as being brilliant.

We agree! For the new incoming critics of the time Ellington's soundworld was judged old-fashioned when put up against the "moderns", many of whom in any case tended to write off big band jazz in general as redolent of Swing and their own critical take on it, as well as for not allowing for the space needed for more exploratory improvisation, which had some merit. Aside from the reality that new and more complex big band arrangements of that era were a very significant part of the advances then being made, Ellington's contribution was as it had always been, enormously influential in itself on the best Bebop arrangements, while independent in so many ways of his contemporaries' orthodoxies...In that he was no different from a good few "modernists" then celebrated for bucking trends!

[burning dog]

I agree with both Ian and SA !!

[Serial_Apologist]

I would also probably agree with Ian with regards to the jazz definition being applied to this week's choice by Soweto's stand-in, notwithstanding my own capacity for stretching boundaries in this area, but I have found her selections interesting and mostly pretty good, offering stylistic mixes with names attached I feel encouraged to investigate further, I might even bookmark the series for a repeat listening next week. One of the tracks this evening, a Rhodes keyboard-led trio, strongly reminded me of a 1973 album still in my possession which had Stomu Yamash'ta from The East Is Red as the drummer.

[Jazzrook]

Just noticed ‘Messiaen and the Birds’ on Radio 3, Sunday 23, Feb at 8pm Could be interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0028208

JR

[Ian Thumwood]

Thanks for the heads up, Jazzrook.

I love MessIaen but found the new biography of him by Robert Sholl a real let down. There was more about Messiaen religion. I found large parts of the book unreadable.

As a birdwarcher this programme has a big interest for me. I have been listening to The Garden Warbler piano composition I am fascinatedby it. MessIaen loved this bird but I have never seen or heard one although they are not rare. I really want to learn his Preludes for piano although it is far too difficult. Tempted to buy the score just to discover how the chords work. I have most of his piano work in my collection except a few volumes of Catelogue d'Oisueax. Interesting how often some birds repeatedly crop up.in his work , most noticeably the blackbird.

Incidentally, at my wedding we walked out of the registry office to the 5th movement Turangulila symphony which made a marked difference to Lovem's choice of Westlife to walk into the ceremony!

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks for the heads up, Jazzrook.

I love MessIaen but found the new biography of him by Robert Sholl a real let down. There was more about Messiaen religion. I found large parts of the book unreadable.

As a birdwarcher this programme has a big interest for me. I have been listening to The Garden Warbler piano composition I am fascinatedby it. MessIaen loved this bird but I have never seen or heard one although they are not rare. I really want to learn his Preludes for piano although it is far too difficult. Tempted to buy the score just to discover how the chords work. I have most of his piano work in my collection except a few volumes of Catelogue d'Oisueax. Interesting how often some birds repeatedly crop up.in his work , most noticeably the blackbird.

Incidentally, at my wedding we walked out of the registry office to the 5th movement Turangulila symphony which made a marked difference to Lovem's choice of Westlife to walk into the ceremony!

I bought the Messiaen Preludes many years ago, but also found them too difficult to play - the main reason being the proliferation of double sharps and flats as set in already extreme key signatures. Messiaen would have done just as well notating all that music is if it were in C major and using sharps and flats, the way he would later do as his music became in effect more atonal. I gave the preludes away to Keith Tippett, who was apt to use a lot of "Messiaenic" chords in his freely improvised sessions. I love the Catalogue d'Oiseaux, solo piano pieces ranging from a few minutes long to mini tone poems, which for me are the directest descendants from Debussy's two books of Preludes. I overlook Messiaen's odd mixture of religio-aesthetic beliefs, ranging from Buddhism to Catholicism by way of pantheism, Wagner and Surrealism. His own lyrics to the otherwise very beautiful Poemes pour Mi are weird, to say the least.

[Ian Thumwood]

Messiaen's lyrics were controversial and were in part to blame fe le case Messiaen in 1945.

I have to admit to having an addiction to buying sheet music and have often bought stuff that is really too difficult but that I wanted to understand how it works. There are three things I really hate and that is using using sharps or flats , pieces using the extreme registers of the piano (treble especially) and crossing hands. The latter is a show stopper for me. I think I have been doing this for about 4 years and have increased my music three fold. It has massively improved my jazz playing as I can do more with my left hand.


At the moment I have been learning the Scriabin opus 1 prelude un C# minor which is quite easy to learn to site read. I have masses of Scriabin and alot of that is difficult. The wierd thing is when playing Haydn, Clementi , Bach or Scarlatti, I am not sure how much of playing is reading or anticipation due to being able to improvise.

I get the point of your comments with Messiaen. I feel the same with Villa Lobos who was really a cellist and wrote piano music which is either childlike or requires three hands. He was not writing as a pianist. I find Debussy too difficult but Poluenc is ok. The most interesting music is the early Szymanowski which I think is difficult but doable insofar that I can sight read it even if my hands are too small. Bartok is really hard because you cannot use your ears to assist . I found Prokoviev too hard as well. Clementi is a doddle ....fun but not sure if he was on a par with Haydn.

It is really interesting to sight read music as there is a clear dividing line in harmony. Even the John Field nocturnes are more basic than.i anticipated. Not as sophisticated as bebop from that perspective nor as crystallised as Haydn who should be more familiar to people listening to jazz. Ditto for Scarlatti who should be as familiar as JSB.

[Alyn_Shipton]

There’s an entire chapter in my 2022 book ‘On Jazz’ (CUP) refuting the Newport myth, with interviews from Clark Terry and Jimmy Woode among others. And a rigorous debunk of Avakian’s ‘rediscovery’ fable. I analyse most of the 48-55 live recordings and trace press coverage of the band throughout the supposed period of obscure and tawdry gigs.

[Serial_Apologist]

There’s an entire chapter in my 2022 book ‘On Jazz’ (CUP) refuting the Newport myth, with interviews from Clark Terry and Jimmy Woode among others. And a rigorous debunk of Avakian’s ‘rediscovery’ fable. I analyse most of the 48-55 live recordings and trace press coverage of the band throughout the supposed period of obscure and tawdry gigs.

Thanks Alyn for including some of your memorable interview with Nina Simone in today's programme.

[Serial_Apologist]

Messiaen's lyrics were controversial and were in part to blame fe le case Messiaen in 1945.

I have to admit to having an addiction to buying sheet music and have often bought stuff that is really too difficult but that I wanted to understand how it works. There are three things I really hate and that is using using sharps or flats , pieces using the extreme registers of the piano (treble especially) and crossing hands. The latter is a show stopper for me. I think I have been doing this for about 4 years and have increased my music three fold. It has massively improved my jazz playing as I can do more with my left hand.


At the moment I have been learning the Scriabin opus 1 prelude un C# minor which is quite easy to learn to site read. I have masses of Scriabin and alot of that is difficult. The wierd thing is when playing Haydn, Clementi , Bach or Scarlatti, I am not sure how much of playing is reading or anticipation due to being able to improvise.

I get the point of your comments with Messiaen. I feel the same with Villa Lobos who was really a cellist and wrote piano music which is either childlike or requires three hands. He was not writing as a pianist. I find Debussy too difficult but Poluenc is ok. The most interesting music is the early Szymanowski which I think is difficult but doable insofar that I can sight read it even if my hands are too small. Bartok is really hard because you cannot use your ears to assist . I found Prokoviev too hard as well. Clementi is a doddle ....fun but not sure if he was on a par with Haydn.

It is really interesting to sight read music as there is a clear dividing line in harmony. Even the John Field nocturnes are more basic than.i anticipated. Not as sophisticated as bebop from that perspective nor as crystallised as Haydn who should be more familiar to people listening to jazz. Ditto for Scarlatti who should be as familiar as JSB.

As happens I inherited some Scriabin preludes when my mother passed away in '85 - Op.7 I think they are: still strongly influenced by Chopin and Liszt, being mostly slow they would be comparatively easy to play were it not for some complex cross-metres including 5 against 4, requiring a lot of separate hand practising before putting the parts together.

[Ian Thumwood]

SA

I have these Preludes. They are Opus 11. The opus 8 Etides are really nice but, again, some of it is impossible. The preludes do have a few that are easy but more that a very hard. I did buy Vers la flamme which is ok for the first page but the remaining require an extra hand too. For me, I just like the process of sight reading and seeing how the music works as opposed to getting the music right as this is not achievable.

[Quarky]

Thanks for the heads up, Jazzrook.


Incidentally, at my wedding we walked out of the registry office to the 5th movement Turangulila symphony which made a marked difference to Lovem's choice of Westlife to walk into the ceremony!

Congratulations on your wedding Ian, but was it in fact the 5th movement (Joie du sang des etoiles), which might have frightened some guests(?), and not the 6th (Jardin du sommeil d'amour) ?

Yes thanks for heads up Jazzrook. I enjoyed the drama greatly, in particular the portrayal of his relationship with Yvonne Loriod.

Messiaen had a stated distaste for Jazz, which i find difficult to understand, in view of his openness to other forms of music and other cultures.

[Ian Thumwood]

Quarky

Thanks very much.

It was the 5th movement we had played.

I think Messiaen had distaste for a lot of music as well as jazz, which, I concur, seems odd. The influence of Greek and Indian music was limited to the use of rhythm and not religious. It was Catholicism which was his prime influence but it is the comparison of his music to stained glass windows which resonates with me in addition to the birdsong.