Charles Tolliver remembers Max Roach on Thursday's RM

[Serial_Apologist]

Sun 17 Nov

http://www.alynshipton.co.uk/blog

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0024xlb

Mon 18 - Fri 22 Nov

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0024x7k

[Serial_Apologist]

Overlooked by me, on BBC4 TV tonight for any night owls:

11.55 Jazz 625: the British Jazz Explosion

Sons of Kemet, Nubya Garcia, Kokoroko, Poppy Ajudha, Matthew Halsall, Moses Boyd Exodus and Ezra Collective play live in this 2020 revival of the jazz showcase which originally ran on the BBC in the 1960s.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000pjds

From whom have emerged an exponential plethora of new names, too many to keep up with let alone tabs on!

Excellent JRR today - The Bessie track with Louis must've been one of the earliest black jazz recordings. We'd had the ODJB, NORK and Paul Whiteman, but they had all been white bands. When was the first black jazz actually recorded? Was it 1924? Blues, Gospel and Ragtime had been recorded earlier or in the case of Ragtime put on piano rolls. I know, I really should know! John Etheridge remarked that 60 years amounted to jazz's version of The Archers! Not quite, John!

[Alyn_Shipton]

As I say in my New History of Jazz it’s arguable the first jazz recordings by African Americans were by Ciro’s Club Orchestra in 1916 in London playing string band jazz. Listen to My Mother’s Rosary or other tracks from their work.

[Ian Thumwood]

SA

i would hazard a guess that black jazz artists were already well documented by 1921 at the latest. Even by 1923, the first truly great jazz unit, King Oliver's Ceole Jazz band with a young Louis, had produced its greatest works. I believe Kid Ory had debuted in California around 1921 with Reb Spikes.

Prior to this, James Reece Europe made his first proto jazz recordings around 1913 to 14 bur if you delve into the history of territory bands, it is surprising just how many black musicians were recording before 1924 and how widespread the jazz scene was by then. I would suggest that jazz was already pretty widespread by 1921 and that many bands from the provinces were recording by then. The now defunct Red Hot Jazz website used to be a good source of acoustic jazz recordings.

The oDJB get alot of stick but they were only one of a number of white jazz groups from late teens. Plenty of Black artists recorded before them but it is open debate as ti who was playing jazz or indeed whether the ODJB played jazz themselves. I do not feel jazz had crystallised by then but it certainly had by 1921. By 1923 i believe Jelly Roll Mortin had recorded with NORK and within a year of this, Henderson was making his first recordings with what you might consider er to be the next generation of jazz musicians.

I have read sufficient books in jazz by now which makes it clear that jazz was ubiquitous on records by 1924 and firmly spread across the States by then. I find it staggered how quickly it caught on after 1917 not only amongst dancers and music fans but also amongst serious classical composers. There must have been hundreds of black jazz musicians making records by 1924 and not just in hotshots like New Orieans, New York or Chicago . There would have been black jazz groups at least performing if not making records in most American cities by then. Albert Mccarthy' s book on big band jazz offers some staggering insights.

[Serial_Apologist]

As I say in my New History of Jazz it’s arguable the first jazz recordings by African Americans were by Ciro’s Club Orchestra in 1916 in London playing string band jazz. Listen to My Mother’s Rosary or other tracks from their work.

[Tenor Freak]

Hate to advertise Gilles Peterson on 6Music again but he's got a featured interview with Charles Tolliver on last Saturday's show. Ah, here it is> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0024xhc

At one point Mr. Tolliver mentions being able to buy a suit when he was in London with Max Roach - weren't they sold in Guineas back then? I wouldn't know, etc. Start around 1:33:13 to hear some Jackie Mac from "It's Time!" which precedes the interview.

[Serial_Apologist]

SA

i would hazard a guess that black jazz artists were already well documented by 1921 at the latest. Even by 1923, the first truly great jazz unit, King Oliver's Ceole Jazz band with a young Louis, had produced its greatest works. I believe Kid Ory had debuted in California around 1921 with Reb Spikes.

Prior to this, James Reece Europe made his first proto jazz recordings around 1913 to 14 bur if you delve into the history of territory bands, it is surprising just how many black musicians were recording before 1924 and how widespread the jazz scene was by then. I would suggest that jazz was already pretty widespread by 1921 and that many bands from the provinces were recording by then. The now defunct Red Hot Jazz website used to be a good source of acoustic jazz recordings.

The oDJB get alot of stick but they were only one of a number of white jazz groups from late teens. Plenty of Black artists recorded before them but it is open debate as ti who was playing jazz or indeed whether the ODJB played jazz themselves. I do not feel jazz had crystallised by then but it certainly had by 1921. By 1923 i believe Jelly Roll Mortin had recorded with NORK and within a year of this, Henderson was making his first recordings with what you might consider er to be the next generation of jazz musicians.

I have read sufficient books in jazz by now which makes it clear that jazz was ubiquitous on records by 1924 and firmly spread across the States by then. I find it staggered how quickly it caught on after 1917 not only amongst dancers and music fans but also amongst serious classical composers. There must have been hundreds of black jazz musicians making records by 1924 and not just in hotshots like New Orieans, New York or Chicago . There would have been black jazz groups at least performing if not making records in most American cities by then. Albert Mccarthy' s book on big band jazz offers some staggering insights.

Thanks for your very informative reply Ian - along with apologies for this belated one.

[Serial_Apologist]

Hate to advertise Gilles Peterson on 6Music again but he's got a featured interview with Charles Tolliver on last Saturday's show. Ah, here it is> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0024xhc

At one point Mr. Tolliver mentions being able to buy a suit when he was in London with Max Roach - weren't they sold in Guineas back then? I wouldn't know, etc. Start around 1:33:13 to hear some Jackie Mac from "It's Time!" which precedes the interview.

Tremendous tracks too, none of which had I encountered before, including some rare early Funk, so many thanks - not being a R6 listener I would never have known otherwise. I really envy Charles his memory!