Goodbye J to Z - time springs forward

[Alyn_Shipton]

Humph's Radio 2 show was always an in-house production, though in latter years it came from BBC Birmingham, as did Jazz Notes when I presented it. Jazz Now (with Soweto, which everyone here seems to have forgotten) was an independent production as was Jazz Library. Producer choice officially ended in 2006.

[Old Grumpy]

Well, I for one haven't forgotten Jazz Now, or that Soweto was one of the presenters!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

For anyone interested in that period...it's very good.

She's a Cambridge anthropologist/chair and she won an ESRC award to spend two + years inside the BBC. When they realised who she was, attending key meetings, and intended to publish, they tried to offer her a job to shut her up!

She's also a cellist and has played with Westbrook etc etc etc.

Georgina Born, Uncertain Vision: Birt, Dyke and the Reinvention of the BBC. London: Secker & Warburg, 2004, 564 pp.

Georgina Born's epic ethnographic study of the BBC opens a new window onto the practical dynamics of public service broadcasting. Despite the fact that the book deals with the tumultuous departure of Dyke and Davies from the BBC, Uncertain Vision is primarily about the BBC under Birt. It contends that a decline in creative culture at the BBC was detrimental to programmes and therefore also to the BBC's ability to deliver its public service mission, and argues that, by the end of the 1990s, changes at the BBC contributed to ‘a risk-averse broadcast culture in which imitation, populism and sensationalism have become rife’

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes. Going all wobbly with a bunch of harps strumming whole-tone scales for a moment, think back on the John Birt era (do we really have to?). According to the Wiki article on Birt here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birt,_Baron_Birt :



So a bit later than Thatcher but part of a pattern of systematic attacks on the BBC by subjecting it to rigged competition where it probably could produce the programmes cheaper and more effectively than any outside production company. But that was the point. I am fairly sure that towards the end Humph's show was an outside production but I have not found evidence of that from the BBC Genome site or elsewhere. It's shocking to realise that Humph's last show on Radio 2 was 17 March 2008. And although he was a barrel of laughs on Radio 4, on his own show he always took this music seriously but never was patronising. Jazz Today ended in January 1988 so Charles Fox was already out of the game when this all happened.

I have never worked for the BBC so I'm not in a position to give any details but there are some here who have and could add more detail.

Didn’t realise it had gone to Brum as Alyn says . I did it a few times at BH and once made the classic error of listening to a track and enjoying it too much and then forgetting to cut the applause into the next one. Humph filled excellently while I spotted to the right place.

Producer choice was more about producers choosing whether to use in house technical facilities or out of house . A lot of TV producers took editing and studio work out of house .But in radio it never really made much sense to me .
Independent production and programme commissioning that I was referring to In response to a query is something different. I’m not sure in Radio whether they have a separate commissioning structure in the way that TV does. BBC studios the main TV production arm is a bit of a curious beast - not really an indie but able to pitch to any channel in or out of the BBC. Again I’m not sure there’s an equivalent in Radio.

As to the question of how much money producer choice “saved” I think the answer lies in the fact that as Alyn says in swathes of the BBC it disappeared. In contrast Farming out programmes to indies has reduced costs largely because the staff pay and conditions of service were not as good as in-house - particularly the pension costs. To be fair some in-house depts would have a lot of staff downtime between series - some thing that doesn’t happen in indies where the majority of the staff are on short term contracts. Against that has to be set the profits taken by and the very large salaries and dividends the top indies pay themselves. BBC Studios the main tv production arm has also gone down the short term contract route . The pay for senior people in indies is generous. Way , way more than their BBC in-house equivalents. And that’s 21st century Britain folks.

[Tenor Freak]

Humph's Radio 2 show was always an in-house production, though in latter years it came from BBC Birmingham, as did Jazz Notes when I presented it. Jazz Now (with Soweto, which everyone here seems to have forgotten) was an independent production as was Jazz Library. Producer choice officially ended in 2006.

Thanks for that clarification, Alyn.

[Ian Thumwood]

I have to be honest as say that "'Round midnight" is a massive improvement to J-Z. I have listened to extracts from some of the programmes although the timing of the programme udirng a weekday makes it impossible to listen to it other than on catch up. My comments would be:-


1. It very focussed on the current UK scene which currently strikes me as being very similar to how I remember it when I was getting in to jazz in the eaely 1980s when t jazz fusion was still popular. Picking up on one of SA's comments this week, I would argue that perhaps Jazz needs new figures like Wynton Marsalis and Courtney Pine to re-calibrate the music nearer the mainstream and stimulate the debate about what jazz is again. However, I feel that this is a bus which has now long since gone. From a personal perspective, I am not a fan of much of the current UK scene although I feel it is more interesting than say 5-15 years ago where groups like Neil Cowley's Trio, Dinosaur, etc seemed to have hit the bottom. (Laura Jurd's acoustic "Dinosaur" gig on J-Z being the all time nadir for a live jazz broadcast on BBC in my opinion. )

2. I like Soweto Kinch's "no fuss" presentation style.

3. There are some vintage recordings that have been featured and it was good to hear Paul Bley in amongst the mix this week. I am curious how far back the "vintage" element will go and think that it is unlikely to feature anything beyond mid-fifties. It would be more interesting to hear everything from Jazz's 107 year recorded history but I am not sure this.So far the range has been broader than J-Z although there has been nothing by larger ensembles to date.

4. I think that the days of excellent programmes like "Jazz File" are unfortunatley long gone but it would be nice to hear some deeper knowledge and insight into the music being played. Not convinced that Nubya Garcia's insights were that revelatory nor offered much musical analysis.

5. Some of the criticism is a bit harsh considering it is still early days. The 5 hours of jazz now offered is a massive improvement on J-Z.

6. I regret that I had not heard of most of the artists featured. It is good to hear new jazz but it was interesting to look through the play list of one of the podcasts featured on All about jazz this week called the "Jazz Continuum and compare. It feaured tracks by James Brandon Lewis, Mary Halvorson, Chicago Underground duo, Kenny Drew, Satoko Fujii, Marc Copland, Matthew Shipp, Archie Shepp, Don Pullen , Pee Wee Russell, Orrin Evans, Ben Webster and John Zorn. This is probably more representative of both the "tradition" and where jazz is now. Some of the UK stuff does sound insipid in comparison in my view. As I have said before, there is still some really important and exciting contemporary jazz out there. It is just that you would never believe that judging by J-Z. I hope the new programme does not ignore the more straight forward, swinging jazz at the expense of the groove-based stuff.

7. On a more general note, I am wondering whether the format of programmes like " ' Round midnight" will have on more "mainstream" labels like Crisscross, Savant, Sunnyside, etc and whether the more orthodox jazz featured on these labels will get show-cased. I suppose my fear would be that a whole swathe of jazz could end of being ignored. One of the best and mos consistent jazz musicians of our time is Orrin Evans yet his music does not get featured nearly enough on the radio. I think J-Z seemed to flit between UK releases and the more starry names.

[Quarky]

Zara McFarlane is at her best IMV maintaining some distance from Sarah Vaughan and being her own gal (Police & Thieves). Otherwise she may be in danger of being regarded as a tribute act to Sarah (Tenderly).

[Jazzrook]

The Observer review of Radio 3’s new programmes including ‘Round Midnight:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/apr/06/the-week-in-audio-radio-3-new-schedule-helen-lewis-left-chat-strike-wiser-than-me-julia-louis-dreyfus-review

JR

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

There was also an indulgent review in the Telegraph last week which suggested that 1960s British jazz, in contrast to the present RM joys, was hallmarked by Dankworth and Kenny Wheeler.

Wot, no Kenny Ball?

[Serial_Apologist]

I've just heard a track from Fergus McCreadie on JRR, which had an enervating repeated ostinato based on a well-known one used for queuers to phone call centres from Vivaldi's "The Seasons" - the difference being that at least the 18th century Italian composer interspersed the dum-ti-dum motif with a different one to vary the monotony. Hopefully I am being unfair, but noting that Mr McCreadie is the guest invitee on all next week's Round Midnight does not exactly enthral me with anticipation for what is to come.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I've just heard a track from Fergus McCreadie on JRR, which had an enervating repeated ostinato based on a well-known one used for queuers to phone call centres from Vivaldi's "The Seasons" - the difference being that at least the 18th century Italian composer interspersed the dum-ti-dum motif with a different one to vary the monotony. Hopefully I am being unfair, but noting that Mr McCreadie is the guest invitee on all next week's Round Midnight does not exactly enthral me with anticipation for what is to come.

up until that point for me this was a more or less perfect JRR for my tastes. That Mingus track - absolutely wonderful. It’s obvious the harmonically sparse (monotonous ) McCreadie track will suffer in comparison. The Bheki Mseleku slightly outstayed its welcome also - every solo just a chorus too long, and the main a bit of a repetitive musical palindrome - up and back down a scale ladder. But it’s all one man’s meat etc isn’t it ?

[Serial_Apologist]

up until that point for me this was a more or less perfect JRR for my tastes. That Mingus track - absolutely wonderful. It’s obvious the harmonically sparse (monotonous ) McCreadie track will suffer in comparison. The Bheki Mseleku slightly outstayed its welcome also - every solo just a chorus too long, and the main a bit of a repetitive musical palindrome - up and back down a scale ladder. But it’s all one man’s meat etc isn’t it ?

Admittedly I was only half listening, but I had a sneaky suspicion the MacCreadie track was engineered onto the programme to draw attention to Round Midnight. I'll probably get slated now for voicing my opinion!

[Serial_Apologist]

Tuesday's episode ramped up the musical interest a notch, IMV. I like Soweto's calm measured presentation. A different voice from the ebullient voice of Jazz Now, which didn't click with me.
It's very early days, but if he can continue as he has begun, I might become enthusiastic..

.................and the music pretty much de nos jours......

First reaction to Round Midnight articles from the journalists in the latest London Jazz News seem guardedly positive:

http://londonjazznews.com/2024/04/07/round-midnight-bbc-radio-3-the-first-week/

[Quarky]

Thanks for the reviews. It is early days, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
i'm still somewhat mystified by Fergal Mcreadie. He has won various awards on the basis of fusion of Jazz with Scottish folk music, if I am correct. I don't know whether I can stretch to appreciate his contribution.

[Old Grumpy]

Thanks for the reviews. It is early days, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
i'm still somewhat mystified by Fergal Mcreadie. He has won various awards on the basis of fusion of Jazz with Scottish folk music, if I am correct. I don't know whether I can stretch to appreciate his contribution.

Fergal who he?

https://www.fergusmccreadie.co.uk/