Busting myths in jazz history

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  • Serial_Apologist
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 37814

    Busting myths in jazz history

    Interesting thoughts from Rob Foster in the latest AllAboutJazz arguing that students of the music can have their appreciation negatively affected by reading of musicians' problems, particularly surrounding given recording dates.

    Busting Myths in Jazz History: Focus on the Music article by Rob Foster, published on August 9, 2023 at All About Jazz. Find more Jazz in Long Form articles


    Foster cites newcomers to specific recordings evidencing negative reactions if they are told specific recordings were made under influence of drugs etc., citing Bird's famous "Lover Man" recording and similar others, as compared with those not informed passing good judgements on the same tracks.

    My own view would be that the intimate relationship between performances and the circumstances surrounding them is of greater importance when it comes to jazz, whose spontaneous mode of expression is arguably more revealing than in classical music, where the composer adopts a mindset at one remove from the finished article, or for that matter any written down music. For me the problem of influencing a novice's viewpoint is as much to be explained by underlying prejudices or assumptions he or she brings to the session as by any standards regarding performance that have been imposed by authorities of whatever hue. If posts on this forum are to go by, many might appear to judge by comparison with previous events, recordings one has heard, or with other works by the same composer one judges better or worse: criteria which separate the serious jazz buff from the classical aficionado. I think Foster has something of a point but goes too far by situating the jazz listener in relation to the experience in the way one might view a listener strongly moved by hearing, say, Wagner for the first time, unaware that he was an antisemite and Hitler's favourite composer.

    There should be one proviso, namely that the listener should first hear the music before being told of its circumstances. If that listener is moved by Charlie Parker's "Lover Man" solo - without knowing of its circumstances or the mental and physical state Parker was in at the time - then "jazz education" will have instilled its jazz induction in a manner accordant with the authentic spirit of the music, which is one that speaks through the music rather than through any narrative or predisposing pre-narrative. I do however believe further knowledge of the kind Foster claims to be pre-judgemental on the music is essential if one wants to delve into the essential background to gain full appreciation of this kind of music.
  • RichardB
    Banned
    • Nov 2021
    • 2170

    #2
    Firstly, I don't really see why issues with addiction are necessarily more (or less) relevant than other aspects of a jazz musician's life when it comes to understanding or appreciating their work. The fact that all the musicians cited in the article would have been victims of racism on a daily basis must surely be a factor as well. Secondly, jazz musicians certainly don't have a monopoly on addiction! - plenty of "classical" composers lived (and live) with such problems, with varying impacts on their creative work. In general though I don't understand why knowing that a particular recording was made "under the influence of drugs" should change one's opinion of the music, and that is the prejudice that needs dealing with here, influenced as it is by the American "war on drugs" (which is accurately described here as "state-sanctioned racism" https://www.latimes.com/opinion/stor...ays-about-race). That's my two cents' worth anyway.

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    • Joseph K
      Banned
      • Oct 2017
      • 7765

      #3
      Originally posted by RichardB View Post
      In general though I don't understand why knowing that a particular recording was made "under the influence of drugs" should change one's opinion of the music, and that is the prejudice that needs dealing with here, influenced as it is by the American "war on drugs"
      Agreed (with all of your post, but particularly with the bit I quote). Ultimately, the phenomenology of listening to a recording is in the final analysis irreducible to things like whether the performer was juiced/stoned/twisted/tripping or whatever.
      I haven't yet read the article (I'm on holiday and thus on my phone) but something that sprung to mind regarding the creation of prejudices is an artist's opinion on their art - specifically, John McLaughlin saying the producer Alan Douglas 'destroyed' McLaughlin's album Devotion. It's odd because the album has been reissued with different covers and even with different song orders which makes me think McLaughlin must have relinquished artistic control over it some time ago. And yet this album IMO is an absolute diamond, I put it on regularly. But I didn't think that initially, although I wasn't in the most propitious state of mind when I first bought and heard the album, so I did have to get over that prejudice instilled by McLaughlin's strong opinion on it. Which I think is likely to be a stronger prejudice than I'm ever likely to experience knowing that a musician was in an altered state of mind during a particular recording.
      Last edited by Joseph K; 10-08-23, 16:09.

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      • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 4314

        #4
        What we need is trigger warnings. And safe spaces. Lots.

        ​​​​​​I remember in my teenage listening the fact that someone was an addict, strung out etc was an additional incentive to check them out, that kind of romanticism about the "jazz life" died hard. Art isn't made by saints or devils or by machines (mostly), it's human expression. Stan Getz said he never cut a session totally sober of whatever right up until the end. Hank Mobley said one reason Alfred Lion liked having Herbie on a date, is that he'd have someone in the band to converse with!

        I can listen to Art Pepper without his armed robbery escapades getting in the way, Miles with his brutality to women, Al Haig shoving his wife down the stairs and his Hitleresque antisemitism.

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        • Serial_Apologist
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 37814

          #5
          Originally posted by Joseph K View Post

          Agreed (with all of your post, but particularly with the bit I quote). Ultimately, the phenomenology of listening to a recording is in the final analysis irreducible to things like whether the performer was juiced/stoned/twisted/tripping or whatever.
          I haven't yet read the article (I'm on holiday and thus on my phone) but something that sprung to mind regarding the creation of prejudices is an artist's opinion on their art - specifically, John McLaughlin saying the producer Alan Douglas 'destroyed' McLaughlin's album Devotion. It's odd because the album has been reissued with different covers and even with different song orders which makes me think McLaughlin must have relinquished artistic control over it some time ago. And yet this album IMO is an absolute diamond, I put it on regularly. But I didn't think that initially, although I wasn't in the most propitious state of mind when I first bought and heard the album, so I did have to get over that prejudice instilled by McLaughlin's strong opinion on it. Which I think is likely to be a stronger prejudice than I'm ever likely to experience knowing that a musician was in an altered state of mind during a particular recording.
          Responding in agreement to yourself and to RichardB (if I may) there is, I believe, a distinction to be made in response to non-written, spontaneous music - my point being that jazz, especially innovatory jazz, places the listener in a relationship of immediacy that is experientially of a very high order inasmuch as it is direct, unmediated, while at the same time epitomised in terms of its advanced musical language.

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          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4223

            #6
            I saw the article this morning but gave up with it. An artist's environment or mental condition will always influence the work he produces and needs to be taken into consideration when appreciating. S
            A is spot on regarding the fact improvisation makes this even more vital. I am not convinced it is necessarily significant if you hear a piece of music for the first time yet are unaware of the circumstances of it's creation. Probably not helped by the fact that people will here the music differently anyway.

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            • Joseph K
              Banned
              • Oct 2017
              • 7765

              #7
              Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

              Responding in agreement to yourself and to RichardB (if I may) there is, I believe, a distinction to be made in response to non-written, spontaneous music - my point being that jazz, especially innovatory jazz, places the listener in a relationship of immediacy that is experientially of a very high order inasmuch as it is direct, unmediated, while at the same time epitomised in terms of its advanced musical language.
              Yes indeed, 'unmediated' is exactly how I'd describe it. I would also say that that music has a kind of authenticity that is suis generis.

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              • RichardB
                Banned
                • Nov 2021
                • 2170

                #8
                Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                there is, I believe, a distinction to be made in response to non-written, spontaneous music - my point being that jazz, especially innovatory jazz, places the listener in a relationship of immediacy that is experientially of a very high order inasmuch as it is direct, unmediated, while at the same time epitomised in terms of its advanced musical language.
                I'm not sure that improvised music is necessarily more "unmediated" than music created using other methods. For example, a composer of notated music might take some considerable time to produce a work which has "revealed itself" to their imagination in what seems like a single moment. Conversely, an improvisation might emerge from a highly systematised approach to developing musical materials (Steve Lacy springs to mind). The impression of unmediatedness is probably located primarily in the listener's mind, isn't it? I would quote Barthes and Sontag at this point only I'm trying to cut down on the intellectual masturbation, I'm told it's bad for my eyesight.

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                • Ian Thumwood
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 4223

                  #9
                  But there are loads of myths about Jazz other than the ones ascribed to Parker and Coltrane. I think that few people were willing to challenge them at least until the 1960s. Writers like Rudi Blesh were all too keen to trot these tales out and larger than life characters like Jelly Roll Morton were more than happy to lead musicologists like John Hammond down the garden path with their tall tales. The stereotypes are legion. Players performing at their peak when drunk, early jazz musicians being unable to read music and being uneducated or even bop originating because musicians were fed up with playing in big bands. Most of these tales are untrue.

                  I have Stephanie Stein Creaese's new biography of Chick Webb to read next but just looking at the first few chapters it is clear that the truth of what was happening in 20s and 30s was more sophisticated than you might think. Not difficult , for example, to see how Webb's insistence on the primacy of the music would have rubbed off on his pupil Art Blakey. Rather that being the antithesis of where jazz was at , Webb saw himself as setting a modern agenda at that time. In situations like that, maybe you do need to be aware of the jazz scene of that time and contrast Webb's approach to band leading with a other Baltimore bandleader I admire, Cab Calloway to get an understanding of how varied the music was and also what mattered about jazz. I think the most interesting aspect of jazz in that time was that this was entirely new music which was being created and , in Webb's case, the role he established for drums transcended jazz and even had a beating on rock. In my opinion Chick Webb was rhe apogee of drumming in the 1930s yet had be lived beyond 1939 , be bop.would have rendered him old fashioned really quickly even if drummers like Dave Tough did not do this soon after his passing.

                  I do not think that the fact swing was popular diminished the music in it's jazz context but maybe a wider understanding of what was happening with drumming and Big band jazz in 1930s is necessary in 2023 as the music has disappeared from living memory. I think it is difficult to appreciate alot of pre 1960s jazz nowadays without either being there at the time or being aware of what came before. I think this os where modern historians are invaluable. It is a bit like the derivative classical music from Philippines that I posted on the classical thread. I like it even though it was often 50 years behind the curve yet if you know somehing of the historical context for the music it does add to the listening experience. A even better example would be the acoustic blues artists of 20s and 30s. The listening experience is enhanced of you know the social context or even the meaning of the lyrics.

                  I thought Barthes was the comedy goal keeper who played for Man Utd.
                  Last edited by Ian Thumwood; 10-08-23, 20:53.

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                  • Ian Thumwood
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 4223

                    #10
                    Richard

                    It did cross my mind that you were probably burping your worms when typing those posts.

                    Ian

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                    • Joseph K
                      Banned
                      • Oct 2017
                      • 7765

                      #11
                      Originally posted by RichardB View Post
                      I'm not sure that improvised music is necessarily more "unmediated" than music created using other methods. For example, a composer of notated music might take some considerable time to produce a work which has "revealed itself" to their imagination in what seems like a single moment. Conversely, an improvisation might emerge from a highly systematised approach to developing musical materials (Steve Lacy springs to mind). The impression of unmediatedness is probably located primarily in the listener's mind, isn't it? I would quote Barthes and Sontag at this point only I'm trying to cut down on the intellectual masturbation, I'm told it's bad for my eyesight.
                      Perhaps not necessarily, no, but the tendency I would say is there. A composer of notated music might create something conceived seemingly in a single moment, but that then passes through a filter in the form of the performers who have to learn it. I am aware of the kind of work that goes into assembling an improvising vocabulary for jazz so I am familiar with the kind of forethought that goes into doing that. And I know that there will be spontaneity involved in performing a notated piece. But I still think there is some quality of improv and some jazz in particular that cuts out the middle man so to speak, or that is successful because of that. I know you don't like in principle to wonder whether some music is notated or improvised and I would say that that is a very creative and interesting mindset to have, especially for a composer; however in practice if asked to try and articulate the qualities of improvised music that I for one find especially attractive (and which would necessarily be quite abstract) I'd go reaching for that term 'unmediated', among others, which exists more than in the listener's mind. But I get why someone would want to forget about or create as though it's specious, the boundary between notated and improvised composition - but I don't find this difficult to accept while concurrently holding the abovementioned opinions/thoughts.

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                      • Ian Thumwood
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 4223

                        #12
                        Joseph

                        Your post made me laugh. It sounds like something written by Mr Logic in the Viz comic! ( probably before your time although I am sure RB was a fan too. )

                        Enjoy your holiday. Hope you have gone somewhere nice. Have you taken your Grandma ?

                        Cheers

                        Ian

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                        • Serial_Apologist
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 37814

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
                          Joseph

                          Your post made me laugh. It sounds like something written by Mr Logic in the Viz comic! ( probably before your time although I am sure RB was a fan too. )

                          Enjoy your holiday. Hope you have gone somewhere nice. Have you taken your Grandma ?

                          Cheers

                          Ian
                          I am not prepared to exchange views with you for as long as you maintain this ignorant line of throwing insults at other posters on this forum.

                          Comment

                          • Ian Thumwood
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 4223

                            #14
                            S A

                            That is a shame as I genuinely enjoy exchanging views with you but I respect your decision. Whilst I do not always agree with your comments, I always find that you respond with civility and modesty. Not too much of a fan of people who come across as aloof but no harm meant towards Joe as I tend not to take his posts too seriously anyway. Sometimes it is necessary to get into someone's ribs. I am sure I am not the only person who feels this way about a particular individual even though I have no idea what he is one about most of the time.

                            Not a problem.

                            Cheers

                            Ian
                            Last edited by Ian Thumwood; 11-08-23, 06:58.

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                            • RichardB
                              Banned
                              • Nov 2021
                              • 2170

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Joseph K View Post
                              I still think there is some quality of improv and some jazz in particular that cuts out the middle man so to speak, or that is successful because of that.
                              Yes indeed. Although that does presuppose a certain amount of knowledge as to what sounds spontaneous and what doesn't, which of course we all have, although as you know it's the borderline cases that interest me most. I don't bring them up on this thread in order to prove a point about the perceptibility of unmediatedness, but to suggest that an experience of what a particular music is supposed to sound like (or what state of consciousness its creator(s) are supposed to have been in, to return to the topic!) isn't necessarily reliable as a quide to assessing a listening experience. Also: there are nearly always "middle men", aren't there? They might be the performers of a notated score, or they might be the rhythm section behind a Coltrane solo. (That's a spontaneous and unformed thought which might not hold much water.)

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