Is any one listening?

[Serial_Apologist]

We aren't going to agree, Ian.

[Honoured Guest]

The technical ability of these younger players is without question but I wonder just how many of people contributing here genuinely believe these recordings by younger British talent will stand the test of time.

My inexpert but interested tuppenceworth is that Radio 3 jazz seems to cover current British jazz very well, with a wide range of good quality live gigs and recordings, enhanced by contextual interviews and discussions. Then, there's the more historical coverage as well, some integrated with the contemporary programming and some separate from it. Coverage of jazz outside Britain is bound to be more patchy and perhaps more subjective, although it makes sense to me to give attention to non-UK broadcasters' recordings and to UK festivals' visiting live concerts, where they still exist in our straitened times. I don't think that playing Mystic Meg to divine future opinion of current activity should play much part in programming decisions.

[burning dog]

Who are "Mystic Meg". Another of those "cutting edge" Young Brutish Jazz outfits that sound more like rubbish 70's Prog?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well but not very HG ...... one might instance the works of such as Tim Garland, Tim Whitehead and Gilad Atzmon as under-represented given their artistically serious intent and execution ... there is a London centric bias to Jazz on R3 even after the Sage gets a a look in ... jazz in the academies, their pupils and teachers, what they are up to, thinking and playing gets no coverage at all onR3 .... some will recall the excellent Jazz File, a programme of analytic essays that thrilled us with arrangers talking about Gil Evans [as Ian will say plenty more opportunities in the orchestral woods for discursive programming] and historical matters .... R3 is just not serious enough about jazz, try NPR and see what i mean ... and it has been a founding objection of this forum that R3 has not been serious about serious music [not to use the krassical (Grock bless KingKennytone who was always serious about music) label Mr Lloyd Webber detests]

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

well but not very HG ...... one might instance the works of such as Tim Garland, Tim Whitehead and Gilad Atzmon as under-represented given their artistically serious intent and execution ... there is a London centric bias to Jazz on R3 even after the Sage gets a a look in ... jazz in the academies, their pupils and teachers, what they are up to, thinking and playing gets no coverage at all onR3 .... some will recall the excellent Jazz File, a programme of analytic essays that thrilled us with arrangers talking about Gil Evans [as Ian will say plenty more opportunities in the orchestral woods for discursive programming] and historical matters .... R3 is just not serious enough about jazz, try NPR and see what i mean ... and it has been a founding objection of this forum that R3 has not been serious about serious music [not to use the krassical (Grock bless KingKennytone who was always serious about music) label Mr Lloyd Webber detests]

All that used to depress and anger but why now when there is now so much more out there on the net, in streamed programming and more in depth individual features. I mentioned France Musique, there is also quality Spanish and Danish radio and a raft of stuff from the States, regionally and nationally. The days when you had to look to the BBC for quality and depth are long gone.

The BBC can and will therefore go to hell in a handcart, and not just in music. I have no loyalty to it, the reverse in fact, and it is unsustainable in its present structure and form. Je suis not La Rona of HSBC absurdity

As for the Brit scene, how much of this is now out- relief for second rate Academia. The jazz academies, the circle toss of university; to learn, play and market, and then reverse back into teaching to reproduce the cycle with the next wave of innocents. Its bloodless and deeply cynical. Its Britain 2015.

Je suis 68.

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

je suis 69 et refuse le monde de zombie de l'internet

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

je suis 69 et refuse le monde de zombie de l'internet

Lo sono Marconi.

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i think that jazz has gone stale on R3; it needs a rethink and a fresh approach it is done dutifully and often well but lacks any dynamism and connection with the jazz communities around the UK - i do not share El Senor's cynicism and pessimism about the academies, that is now the way for jazz across the world .... and if Alyn says he is getting many requests for new younger artists that is good news indeed and rather supports the point that the coverage the station gives to jazz is rather stale .....

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

i think that jazz has gone stale on R3; it needs a rethink and a fresh approach it is done dutifully and often well but lacks any dynamism and connection with the jazz communities around the UK - i do not share El Senor's cynicism and pessimism about the academies, that is now the way for jazz across the world .... and if Alyn says he is getting many requests for new younger artists that is good news indeed and rather supports the point that the coverage the station gives to jazz is rather stale .....

Well it may be the way but it aint the light.

Interesting academic papers around on the once strong, now fading, community support/mentor networks for young UK black musicians who did/do not go the Guildhallesque route.

Does their scene have more edge and vitality? Less fkg whimsey et empty posing a les post grads?

Discuss.

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

er not to mention Birmingham Manchester Scotland &c .... the Guildhall jibe is worn out, Loose Tubes is over

[Ian Thumwood]

Well it may be the way but it aint the light.

Interesting academic papers around on the once strong, now fading, community support/mentor networks for young UK black musicians who did/do not go the Guildhallesque route.

Does their scene have more edge and vitality? Less fkg whimsey et empty posing a les post grads?

Discuss.

BN.

As I've grown older, I am finding is easier to recognise the kind of jazz that is worth spending time getting familiar with as opposed to the bright , shiny kind of artists who crop up in publications and quickly fade from view as that particular fad becomes less fashionable. I can appreciate SA's enthusiasm for newer styles of jazz and original voices. However, at the moment, I'm not hearing this at the present in the UK scene. Admittedly, I am completely out of touch in a way that I probably wasn't 10-15 years ago but the earlier comment about so many bands trying to ape Prog Rock groups is salient in my opinion. The rot seemed to set in around 1999 when Nu Jazz was getting a lot of attention and EST were riding the crest of a wave. I can't see this tide of "fashionable" but lightweight jazz abating and this kind of stuff getting more frequent coverage would tend to make me switch off. There was a review of a British recording by a sextet on Jazz Line Up about four weeks ago that was intriguing but i'm afraid when the groups are lumbered with stupid names it acts as a barrier. Sonny Rollins would never have called any of his groups "Quadroceratops" - it just smacks of immaturity.

I would disagree with Bluesnik regarding the college system as I think this does generate great jazz when the calibre of the teachers are people who have actually lived the life and understand the music. I'm not too convinced this is the case in the UK. I have mentioned my friend Alain in Vienne. Before he retired from the Lyon conservatoire where he taught drums, his fellow professor was the Bulgarian pianist Mario Stanchev and Alain's constant gripe was that pupils were being taught to play in odd meters but struggled to get to grips with swinging. I quite like Stanchev's own work but think that with most great, American musicians tied n to the education programme, there is more chance of the education system producing musicians who can contribute something that is genuine and honest and that sounds authentic. There is a connection and grounding with the past that can't exist in Europe even if musicians with great technique and writing skills are being churned out. Listening to Jonathan Blake's drumming with the quartet last week wakes you up to the fact of how good the US system must be. For my money, the most interesting and original "young generation" player that the UK has produced is pianist John Escreet who is firmly established in the NYC scene and performing with a number of heavy hitters ranging from David Binney and Wayne Krantz through to Evan Parker. Wonder if had he remained in the UK his post-Cecil Taylor styling would have been diluted as opposed to being finely sharpened as they clearly are. Probably our greatest export Stateside since Dave Holland.

[Serial_Apologist]

As I've grown older, I am finding is easier to recognise the kind of jazz that is worth spending time getting familiar with as opposed to the bright , shiny kind of artists who crop up in publications and quickly fade from view as that particular fad becomes less fashionable. I can appreciate SA's enthusiasm for newer styles of jazz and original voices. However, at the moment, I'm not hearing this at the present in the UK scene. Admittedly, I am completely out of touch in a way that I probably wasn't 10-15 years ago but the earlier comment about so many bands trying to ape Prog Rock groups is salient in my opinion. The rot seemed to set in around 1999 when Nu Jazz was getting a lot of attention and EST were riding the crest of a wave. I can't see this tide of "fashionable" but lightweight jazz abating and this kind of stuff getting more frequent coverage would tend to make me switch off. There was a review of a British recording by a sextet on Jazz Line Up about four weeks ago that was intriguing but i'm afraid when the groups are lumbered with stupid names it acts as a barrier.

And yet you were fulsome in praising that Ant Law track I linked the other week on here, Ian: music typical of the sort of stuff my friend and I have been experiencing week on week in London clubs over the past 3-4 years.

Sonny Rollins would never have called any of his groups "Quadroceratops" - it just smacks of immaturity.

And of course, to repeat myself, Wayne Shorter and Joe Zawinul would never have called their group Weather Report; or for that matter Herbie Hancock his jazz-funk band Headhunters, withe its worst exemplifying Afro-primitivist stereotyping.

I would disagree with Bluesnik regarding the college system as I think this does generate great jazz when the calibre of the teachers are people who have actually lived the life and understand the music. I'm not too convinced this is the case in the UK.

The late Mike Garrick? Gary Crosby? Mark Lockheart? Ed Jones? Maggie Nicols? Keith Tippett? Tommy Smith? to my mind all these certainly have, and I'm sure I could conjure up a few more dues servers who have combined bandstand with academic experience.

I have mentioned my friend Alain in Vienne. Before he retired from the Lyon conservatoire where he taught drums, his fellow professor was the Bulgarian pianist Mario Stanchev and Alain's constant gripe was that pupils were being taught to play in odd meters but struggled to get to grips with swinging. I quite like Stanchev's own work but think that with most great, American musicians tied n to the education programme, there is more chance of the education system producing musicians who can contribute something that is genuine and honest and that sounds authentic. There is a connection and grounding with the past that can't exist in Europe even if musicians with great technique and writing skills are being churned out. Listening to Jonathan Blake's drumming with the quartet last week wakes you up to the fact of how good the US system must be. For my money, the most interesting and original "young generation" player that the UK has produced is pianist John Escreet who is firmly established in the NYC scene and performing with a number of heavy hitters ranging from David Binney and Wayne Krantz through to Evan Parker. Wonder if had he remained in the UK his post-Cecil Taylor styling would have been diluted as opposed to being finely sharpened as they clearly are. Probably our greatest export Stateside since Dave Holland.

I can think of any number of what one might call "post-Cecil Taylor" pianists from and continuing to operate in this country who have in no ways diluted their edge: Alex Hawkins, Pat Thomas, Matthew Bourne for starters.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

dese here boredees are making the point that R3 needs a refresher in its approach to jazz ...... nary a word of such stuff is ever broadcast eh .... never mind the artists ....

[charles t]

Limiting my response to a lingering reaction to Ian's nubile insights re:

contemporary Brit jazz

I can only list some acquisitions of same...mostly via places like jazzcds.co.uk or the actual U.K. labels.

Here they are:

Dave Mannington Quartet - Headpush (Loop Records)
The Convergence Quartet - Live In Oxford (FMR Records)
St. Cyprians 2 - Larry Stabbins - (FMR Records)
Four At St. Ciprians - " "
Justin Quinn's Bakehouse - Before I Forget (F-ire)
Partikel - Cohension (Whirlwind Recordings)
Aquarium - Aquarium (Babel)
Ma - The Last (Loop)
Ma - Jyketie (Loop)
The Golden Age Of Steam - Raspberry Tongue (Babel)
Alex Maguire Sextet - Brewed In Belgium (Moonjune Records) Only 1/6th Brit but was purchased Down Texas Way

To be (mostly) truthful - I don't recall a disappointment in any of 'em.

But having snuck into Birdland while under-aged and having had Bud Powell look into my eyes, I haven't been the same boy since.

[burning dog]

And of course, to repeat myself, Wayne Shorter and Joe Zawinul would never have called their group Weather Report; or for that matter Herbie Hancock his jazz-funk band Headhunters, withe its worst exemplifying Afro-primitivist stereotyping.

.

It might have been a better idea if Weather Report never existed
Hancock satirising rather than exemplify I'd have thought...