Blue Note - time to seriously re-appraise this label?

[Ian Thumwood]

Reminds me of Ellington's response to an annoying fan, "All you see here is some guys trying to earn a living".


BN.

This is a bit of a stupid quote. The point I was making was that this record demonstrated the degree of professionalism with this band. The more I listen to Blakey's band, the greater the sense that his groups were really about have a band identity. In the light of this, the comments attributed to Alfred Lion make it easy to appreciate why this band was so frequently recorded. It was a "band" in the truest sense and the records seem to be to catch the current repertoire as opposed to chronicling some kind of musical development / journey. Blakey had already captured the sound he had envisaged for his bands my the 1950s and if the personal seemed to change to reflect the more up-to-the minute approach to soloing , it was always done so within the context of maintaining the band's identity. This had nothing to do with "musicians trying to make a living" but, in my opinion, is demonstrative of a degree of professionalism and a realisation that soloists sound better in the context of written charts and a group will gain greater loyalty if it establishes an identity. Over the last twelve months my perception of Silver and Blakey has changed and I feel that it is really apparent that their desire to frame soloists in an ensemble with a distinct musical identity does hark back to the big bands of the 1930's and 40's. The "writing" aspect in jazz is something that I find very interesting.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

My point Ian, was that although that generation had (great and justified) artistic pride in their output, they also wanted recordings that would sell and be appreciated by their audience and community. Its not always about "art", although in retrospect much of it was. Gig after gig.Grind after grind.

Reading the Kelly "Monk" book, he really wanted to make records people could understand and enjoy. He didn't see it as pushing the edge, his "act" if such it was, when I saw him in the early 60s , underlined that.

That's all.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Having listened to this disc all weekend, it seems more akin to the "Moanin'" record as opposed to the later recordings. Lee Morgan must have still be in his late teens / early twenties and I think he is the best thing about this record as his ideas abound with creativity. This is one of the earliest Shorter recordings I have heard after the Vee-Jay disc which is ok but even more of a sophomore disc for him. It is funny listening to this stuff as , with historic figures in jazz, the more mature work is usually the best. Nowadays, it is perhaps more exciting seeing what is ahead of the curve.

I am intrigued by just how much some records seem to rely on writing and charts as opposed to the head-solos-head format which is alleged to be Blue Notes' Achilles heel. Increasingly, I find "blowing sessions" a little bit underwhelming whereas those disc where time is taken to create an arrangement for the context of the arrangements makes the music more rewarding. Horace Silver was apparently an avid Count Basie fan and he wanted his small bands to operate with the same dynamics as this big band. There is also a sense of this in Blakey's ensembles but maybe even greater emphasis on dynamics so that passages are played louder in the shout choruses. "The Chess players" also includes a unison theme for the horns as well as the head / theme. It is also intriguing to hear the horns punch out riffs ("Free for all") as well as the extent to which the piano parts seem to be part of an arrangement. I think Blakey wanted his bands to have the freedom of small group jazz whilst also seeking the clout and power of big bands in his arrangements. I know there is one AB big band disc but have always been underwhelmed whenever I have heard it.

Blakey as a drummer doesn't have the same appeal to me as PJJ and I think his style has roots that go back much further than Be-bop. His strength is usually cited as an ability to find the next generation of soloists and to continually surround himself with musicians with new ideas. I think this is only true up to a point and the more abstract, free jazz is pretty much an anathema to what his music was about. What never gets mentioned so much is his ability to find people who are able to write for the band whether it was Benny Golson, Wayne Shorter, Cedar Walton or Kuuamba Frank Lacy in later outfits. I think Blakely knew full well that his music was "art" and, the more I familiarize myself with his music, the more I think that this was an arranger's band and perhaps needs to be looked at differently from a lot of other Blue Note artists of than generation although I think that the likes of Tina Brooks and Freddie Redd were thinking along similar lines too. "True Blue" includes a massive amount of writing - there are some tracks where only Brooks and Hubbard solo.

[Ian Thumwood]

Listening to Art Blakey's "Moanin'" record again in the car today, I was struck by the piano playing by Bobby Timmons. He is one of those piano players who was maligned by critics and seems more famous for his compositions than his playing. Setting aside his drink and drugs problems, it is intriguing to listen to his piano playing in the context of what else was going on with the piano at that time. From my perspective, he is a good band pianist in the contest of the Messengers but really corny as a soloist. He sounds like a funkier, Hard Bop version of Milt Buckner and it is striking just how often he relies on stock phrases. The weirdest thing about his playing is his employment of block chords which is often uses in triplets with Blakey. I think that it works in the context of the Jazz Messengers but it does get a bit repetitive. You can appreciate why his stock isn't great in some quarters.

By contrast, I think he was a much more convincing soloist outside the "funky" context of the Messengers and the recordings he made with Kenny Dorham on "Inta something' " and "Matador" are far more credible. It is ironic that this side of his playing is overlooked whereas the more celebrated recordings are quite as compelling. I was staggered to discover that this was the same player and the decidedly uncompromising line up of Dorham and McLean sounds like it allowed Timmons to really open up as a soloist beyond the gospel inspired funky stuff.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

There's a 1966 Bobby Timmons album, "Soul Man", on Prestige with Wayne, Ron Carter and Jimmy Cobb which was by all accounts Timmons attempt to break out of the soul trap (despite its title). I've always liked the record a lot. Shorter's composition "Tom Thumb" is on it pre the Bluenote/Schizophrenia version, and is Wayne's tribute to Bobby, Tom Thumb being Shorter's nickname for him. Ron Carter wrote three of the other tracks. It's maybe not such a big radical departure but its a good honest session by all. Try the Ron Carter written "Tenaj" on Utube as a good example. Very "un-Timmons".

And let's not forget Mr Monk rated Mr Timmons. I like him a lot anyway, he had some very effective touches before they became tired and overdone.

BN.

And from, " Do the math"...

"Bobby Timmons in person" (Riverside). This marvelous trio with Ron Carter has tight arrangements and smooth rhythm. They are kind of like a funkier version of the classic Ahmad Jamal trio with Israel Crosby and Vernell Fournier: Indeed, Tootie Heath knew Fournier personally and credits him as an important influence."

[Ian Thumwood]

BN

The" Soul jazz" movement is one of those things that produced inoffensive music but it never really had that much depth, despite the name of the movement. Several years ago I heard Ramsey Lewis in concert and the experience didn't really leave an impression. To be honest, this is what has put me off a lot of Cannonball Adderley's work.

I friend of mine who plays saxophone mentioned to be last week just how under-rated Adderley was and he agreed with my comment that it is the alto playing which represents the most interesting aspect of "Kind of Blue." The work with Gil Evans is pretty sensational too and if you add Adderley's works on "Milestones" in to the equation, you realise that he was actually an amazingly creative and harmonically switched on player. That said, I haven't listened to a great deal of his Riverside output or even the stuff on Capitol too much. I used to have "Dat there" but it was a record that I felt was brilliant upon first listen yet the whole "soul jazz" ethos of the disc makes it seem lightweight in comparison with say what McLean, Coleman or Dolphy were doing at that time.

Part of me really loves Cannonball Adderley even if I can appreciate why he was derided within some critical circles. One of my friends who got me in to modern jazz in the first case once explained that the British critics in the 1960s were particularly harsh in their judgement of Adderley . You have to pay attention to appreciate why he was so good - a bit like Jimmy Heath who I think also never gets the credit he deserves , either as a soloist or brilliant composer. In a way, Adderley's playing epitomises soulfulness but it is a shame that he pursued the soul jazz direction as opposed to something more experimental which might have seen his stock being enhanced. For my money, his better work does seem to be within other people's bands as opposed to the populist Soul Jazz than he turned out with his cornet playing brother and the likes of Timmons / Zawinul / Louis Hayes /Sam Jones , etc. I don't think that the music is particularly bad yet it is difficult to listen to something like "Milestones" and imagine what he might have been capable of. I don't dislike Cannonball's records yet it never seems to resonate quite as much as say the Kenny Dorham record with Jackie McLean wailing on it that I was listening to last night.

The whole Soul Jazz movement does have it's adherents but I personally think that the whole idiom was far better served when it mutated in the 1990's with groups like Medeski, Martin and Wood pursuing similar kind of groove and mixing it with Free Jazz , Funk and even Rev Gary Davis-style blues. Mixing up Ramsey Lewis with Cecil Taylor as well as more contemporary influences did seem to push the door open and rough the music up a great deal, giving it the fresh legs it needed. From an alto perspective, I have also felt that Kenny Garrett has taken the mantel from Adderley and would have to concede thatm having seen Garrett perform live on four occasions, I strongly feel that he is amongst the most compelling jazz musicians I have ever heard in concert. Still think the gig with Brian Blade / Nat Reeves / Pat Metheny / Kenny Garrett plus guest Dave Liebman in Copenhagen on 1996 is the best jazz I have ever heard performed live.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Well, from a different generation, it was the start of what became "soul jazz" that pulled me into jazz. Adderley, Jimmy Smith, Junior Mance, Oscar Brown Jr, Ray Charles, Bobby Timmons, all those Bluenote 45s et el. As with all movements, the point at which it became solidified in surface cliche it died. But some of those records did, and still, have real depth and resonance. And they were the ones that sold and connected to their "community", probably for the very LAST time.

You had to be there. Or here. Or anywhere.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Well, from a different generation, it was the start of what became "soul jazz" that pulled me into jazz. Adderley, Jimmy Smith, Junior Mance, Oscar Brown Jr, Ray Charles, Bobby Timmons, all those Bluenote 45s et el. As with all movements, the point at which it became solidified in surface cliche it died. But some of those records did, and still, have real depth and resonance. And they were the ones that sold and connected to their "community", probably for the very LAST time.

You had to be there. Or here. Or anywhere.

BN.

I largely agree but I think that the whole "Soul jazz" think eventually got diluted down to a point whereby it started to blend with more popular acts like Bill Withers (who I don't actually mind, to be honest.) As far as "connecting with the community" I would have to say that you have over-looked the influence of artists like Najee and the whole "Smooth Jazz" scene which has basically fulfilled the function that Cannonball held fifty years ago but with a far diminished level of musical results. I suppose someone like Grover Washington was the "ultimate" artist in this respect and I still think that his radio friendly version of jazz does retain the connection with the community in a way that Adderley's quintet might have once done. It is amazing to appreciate that a lot of these "Smooth" players have come from a solid jazz pedigree. To cite Najee again, he studied with the likes of Jimmy Heath and Frank Foster as well as working with George Russell's big band yet this did not distract him from perusing a commercial career path. I think that there is still a connection and don't see Soul Jazz as the last throw of the dice by a long way.


I think that the Soul Jazz movement probably acted as a precursor to Smooth Jazz and the more FM friendly kind of jazz that repels true jazz fans. The album that Adderley made with Nancy Wilson is probably a prime example of this - a very superior kind of pop record. That said, you could equally argue that if you wanted to trace the musical family tree of Kenny G back to it's earliest roots, it would probably have it's origins in Getz / Gilberto which probably made record producers prick their ears to the possibility of fusion / crossover / pop albums. With regard to the meeting of jazz and Black, popular music, the connection has always been there and I don't think that the mix of popular and jazz as well as a jazz influence of popular is always a bad thing. I have often said how much I love Freddie Jackson's "Hootin' & tootin' " on Blue Note. There is no way that you could argue it was "great jazz" and Jackson has a tendency to play clichés that may be worthy of red card if Alyn feels obliged to consider Johnny Griffin's "Kerry Dancers" worthy of a first bookable offence. However, I feel that it achieves it's modest goals with aplomb and manages to recognise both the hardness of Coltrane's tenor tone with r n' b populism. To my ears, this disc is massively divorced from what Jimmy Smith is about and almost on the verges of jazz. It is still a really good album albeit very much of it's time.

[Ian Thumwood]

I had forgotten that I had the Sheila Jordan disc and gave this a spin last week. It is strange how cultish" this record is, not only the fact that it was recorded on Blue Note but also because if was one of the few records by both white musicians and by a singer. When I bought it there was a proportion of the disc I really liked and another proportion that I found pretty annoying. I hate the version of "Dat dere" which has to be one of the most irritating records in the history of jazz. However, the ballads are amazingly successful and pointed the way to how Jordan's own signing would develop as well as seeming to hint at the style of younger generations of musicians as diverse as Norma Winstone and Gretchen Parlato.

The weird thing for me encountering this record was that my first encounter with her singing was a re-working og Tennyson's "Morte D;Arthur" with a big band led by George Gruntz which was pretty impressive and quite a shock for in in 1986! It seemed startlingly original. Jordan is one of those musicians who got much better with age and seemed to thrive more as jazz became more advanced and less set in it's ways. It might be considered a classic before of the oddity of being in the Blue Note discography, but surely there are many better examples of her singing than this record? I seem to recall that she made a real gem with Tom Harrell back in the 1980's.

[Ian Thumwood]

I dug out Andrew Hill's "Point od Departure" this week which is a record I haven't played for ages. It has the reputation of being a classic and most of the plaudits seem to relate to being able to hear Eric Dolphy perform in an unusual context. As much as I love Hill's work (probably amongst my favourite jazz pianists along with Paul Bley, Herbie Hancock, Thelonious Monk and McCoy Tyner), this was one record which I find quite difficult. Part of the problem comes from expecting it to sound like a Blue Note record but, listening again with renewed interest, it is quite easy to see this as more akin to the kind of music Hill was producing in the early 2000's. The front line also includes Joe Henderson and Kenny Dorham who I initially felt was an uncomfortable fit in this context. I am not sure that this is the case and this record is much better than I remembered it being. Hill was always associated with the avant garde as apposed to allocating his work to where is really belongs which is an extension of Ellington's music. Andrew Hill seems increasingly more important and significant with the passing of time.

The oddest Andrew Hill disc on Blue Note must be in "populist" collation of two recording sessions under the title of "Grass Roots" which sees the pianist / composer reach out towards more funk grooves albeit distorted by the leader's angular piano player. I have always loved this record as it is not a 100% success yet is chock-a-block with Hill's catchiest themes. From a visionary point of view, it doesn't match "Point of Departure" yet the feel of the record is more in keeping with Blue Note's ethos at the time. It doesn't sound as fresh as "Departure" and isn't quite as exciting as "Black Fire" which, in my opinion, is Hill's most satisfying Blue Note record.

What is interesting is just how much Hill's music is dependent upon having a strong drummer to drive the music. There is always a risj that Hill's music could collapse under the weight of his abstractionist visions and the likes of Freddie Waits, TOny Williams and Roy Haynes are integral to ensuring that this never happens.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Andrew Hill Qrt (with Sam Rivers) - "Change" Blue note 1966

"This band plays outside, but this is not "free jazz" in the original sense of the term. In fact, it is music that is composed, with lots of room for improvisation, and one need go no further than the 11-minute opening cut, "Violence," where Hill's chords lie behind a bristling opening solo by Rivers. Hill takes the solo from Rivers, quoting from stride piano blues and Thelonious Monk, and then enters into a spiky duet with the saxophonist before a bass solo and Hill entering on harpsichord. Rivers brings the head back in and moves it to the margins again. This fiery interplay is a long example of what lies in wait for those who've never encountered this music before. It is Hill at his most intense and focused, with an eager group of players who were all excellent listeners." (JC Moses on drums).

One of my very favorite Hill albums, orginally part of a briefly released Sam Rivers twofor LP set. ("Involutions).

BTW, Hill was a big fan of Kenny Dorham and versa, Dorham thanking him for opening him up to this kind of approach. Hope Cecil Taylor was listening.

BN.

And there's Andrew's "Compulsion" with Gilmore, Hubbard, Joe Chambers? and African percussion which I did NOT take to when it came out in the 60s but which I now find wonderful and hypnotic. Play LOUD.

BTW, a plug for Alyn's Jazz Library on Andrew Hill, very very useful even if I still can't take the "voices/choir" stuff

[Jazzrook]

Andrew Hill Qrt (with Sam Rivers) - "Change" Blue note 1966

"This band plays outside, but this is not "free jazz" in the original sense of the term. In fact, it is music that is composed, with lots of room for improvisation, and one need go no further than the 11-minute opening cut, "Violence," where Hill's chords lie behind a bristling opening solo by Rivers. Hill takes the solo from Rivers, quoting from stride piano blues and Thelonious Monk, and then enters into a spiky duet with the saxophonist before a bass solo and Hill entering on harpsichord. Rivers brings the head back in and moves it to the margins again. This fiery interplay is a long example of what lies in wait for those who've never encountered this music before. It is Hill at his most intense and focused, with an eager group of players who were all excellent listeners." (JC Moses on drums).

One of my very favorite Hill albums, orginally part of a briefly released Sam Rivers twofor LP set. ("Involutions).

BTW, Hill was a big fan of Kenny Dorham and versa, Dorham thanking him for opening him up to this kind of approach. Hope Cecil Taylor was listening.

BN.

And there's Andrew's "Compulsion" with Gilmore, Hubbard, Joe Chambers? and African percussion which I did NOT take to when it came out in the 60s but which I now find wonderful and hypnotic. Play LOUD.

BTW, a plug for Alyn's Jazz Library on Andrew Hill, very very useful even if I still can't take the "voices/choir" stuff

Bluesnik ~ Will try to track down that elusive Andrew Hill album with Sam Rivers.
One of my favourites is Hill's 1968 'Grass Roots' and here's 'Venture Inward'(First version) from that album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0glZY3ZYDBA

JR

[Ian Thumwood]

"Grass roots" is really enjoyable. It is intriguing as the approach mirrors the more populist direction Blue Note was taking once the label had be sold to Liberty yet still manages to have the angular qualities which makes Andrew Hill's music so interesting. The CD has two recording sessions on, the first including Booker Erwin in what must be a unique outing on Blue Note. For me, the curious thing is that Lee Morgan is a bit below par which is unusual. Ron Carter seems to be playing an electric bass too. I think the heads are also a bit rugged and I wonder how long they got to rehearse the music , especially as some of the repertoire had been performed before. It is also strange to hear a guitar in Hill's music too. I don't think it is a "classic" but it is one of those records that I love returning to. The piano playing is always a massive attraction for me.

Increasingly I feel that it is players like Hill, Henderson, Dorham, Hancock , McLean , Shorter and Hutcherson who offered the most rewarding discs on Blue Note. Freddie Hubbard seems a perculiar artist as although I love his playing, the albums he made all seem remarkably consistent. No one albumstands out amongst all the others. Maybe "Ready for Freddie" is one of his best but they all seem to a really high standard.