Blue Note - time to seriously re-appraise this label?

[Ian Thumwood]

Blinky, blonky , blimey, Guv'nor


Here is the interview in question: -

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/oct/28/werejammin

I think they probably got the job because "trumpeter" Oliver Nelson was a renowned Spurs fan. I thought that this would have bee common knowledge . I think he was a "plastic" supporter , never having visited White Hart Lane. He was originally a Chelsea fan hence the "Blues and the abstract truth" but stopped supporting them when Peter Osgood joined Southampton. With Bob Thiele on board, they should have tried to go an album with Johnny Hodges as his nickname was "Rabbit." (Bunny Berigan obviously being long dead by that point.)

When Alfred Lions sold Blue Note to Liberty there were all sorts of plans to broaden the palate of the label which was considered to being going stale. There was no attempt to sign Chas n' Dave. However, I think that under the current musical direction of Don Was this is likely to be more prevalent. Chas n' Dave could be a Cockney equivalent of Horace Silver even though Spurs have no chance of "Blowing the blues away." Chas Hodges is an odd musician as, outside of the "Chas n' Dave" routine, he usually sounds more like Bill Evans - FACT!

Reading the article, it is staggering at just how prominent they were in late 20th century music. We laugh at them at a peril but these are clearly a couple of musicians who have defined the way popular music has sounded within the last fifty years albeit probably not outside of the M25.

PS: I'm not convinced that this interview is entirely serious. You can't believe everything you read in the Guardian. Why has this newspaper all of a sudden gone high-brow?

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Blinky, blonky , blimey, Guv'nor


Here is the interview in question: -

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2005/oct/28/werejammin

I think they probably got the job because "trumpeter" Oliver Nelson was a renowned Spurs fan. I thought that this would have bee common knowledge . I think he was a "plastic" supporter , never having visited White Hart Lane. He was originally a Chelsea fan hence the "Blues and the abstract truth" but stopped supporting them when Peter Osgood joined Southampton. With Bob Thiele on board, they should have tried to go an album with Johnny Hodges as his nickname was "Rabbit." (Bunny Berigan obviously being long dead by that point.)

When Alfred Lions sold Blue Note to Liberty there were all sorts of plans to broaden the palate of the label which was considered to being going stale. There was no attempt to sign Chas n' Dave. However, I think that under the current musical direction of Don Was this is likely to be more prevalent. Chas n' Dave could be a Cockney equivalent of Horace Silver even though Spurs have no chance of "Blowing the blues away." Chas Hodges is an odd musician as, outside of the "Chas n' Dave" routine, he usually sounds more like Bill Evans - FACT!

Reading the article, it is staggering at just how prominent they were in late 20th century music. We laugh at them at a peril but these are clearly a couple of musicians who have defined the way popular music has sounded within the last fifty years albeit probably not outside of the M25.

PS: I'm not convinced that this interview is entirely serious. You can't believe everything you read in the Guardian. Why has this newspaper all of a sudden gone high-brow?

The story as I read it on a US site reviewing Oliver's output was that he owed Thiele a favour and flew in and out of London with Jimmy Owens to cut it and indeed front it. I can't think of a worse idea but then I never married Teressa Brewer either.

The Guardian IS a joke.

BN.


Bob T was also mixed up with Buddy Holly's early recordings. No truth he fixed the plane.

[Ian Thumwood]

The curious thing is that the Guardian article alludes to also working with musicians form the Basie and Ellington bands. This seems strange. Quite why C & D didn't use London based session musicians is odd yet and the idea of them working with musicians of that calibre is amazing. The newspaper article is suggestive that they were both session musicians but I would have thought that ex-Basie and Ellington musicians would not have come cheap. The Basie band in particular had extremely high levels of musicianship.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

It was Oliver Nelson, Jimmy Owens and Jimmy Maxwell basically fronting a loser UK pub blues band "Oily Rags" built around C&D. Why Nelson, other than the favour, wanted anything to do with it is beyond me. And more, to put his name to it as the Artist and cover shot. I know he spread himself thin but....

There are bits of it on Utube. S#£t even by Chas/Dave bog standard standards.


BN



From Coltrane to Chas... .worra journey.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Doug Payne, review of Nelson's Flying Dutchman sessions...

"Oily Rags". Nominally a name given to two Brits, Chas Hodges and Dave Peacock, it's hard to make
anything of this record - or explain Nelson's
presence here in any rational way other than as a
favor to producer and long-time Nelson advocate,
Bob Thiele, who is said to have discovered Oily
Rags and failed to groom them for anything
better than this. With a name like Oily Rags, what
did anyone expect? Even with the rag revival,
which this really doesn't touch, in full swing
during 1974? Oliver Nelson is named (in full) and
pictured on the album's cover and he's featured
on every track, but he barely registers."

Maybe it was a tax thing.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

A tax dodge bit like one of Jaz Milvane's films?

("Harry Hobbit" or "Dr Bond."

[Ian Thumwood]

The exploration of Kenny Dorham continues, this time with "Afro-Cuban." I find that a lot of early-mid 1950's jazz can be quite conservative , with the foot being taken off the pedal from the white heat of Charlie Parker's be-bop. A lot of the jazz of this time has a good natured bounce to it. The music isn't disagreeable but it is often conservative or at least not quite as gripping as what happened later in the decade.

This album is a good example and is effectively an album of two halves. The Afro-Cuban first half is good fun even if quite dated. Dorham is easily the most impressive soloist amongst the likes of Cecil Payne and a young and indistinguishable Hank Mobley. Those tracks without the Latin percussion are actually far better and sound a bit like the stuff Clifford Brown recorded for Blue Note. That said, I think Dorham's music seems a better indicator of where the label was going and despite the unfamiliar larger ensembles, tracks like "Venita's Dance" and "K.D's Motion" are archetypal Blue Note and demonstrative of Dorham's ability with the pen. Despite some hefty names like Horace Silver, J J Johnson and Hank Mobley in the line up, none come anywhere near eclipsing the leader. The music may be different from what he would produce later one and perhaps cast in the sound world of Miles' BofC Band that was influential then but I think this is a short but pleasing album. The one thing that did strike me was that Art Blakey's drumming seems to almost be a dominant as the ensemble and that he often out of time on the breaks. Blakey is a bit of an icon yet I think his time-keeping prowess is often uneven and I certainly wouldn't put his performance on the basis of this disc in the same category as Philly Joe or Max Roach.

Another curious thing I did this week was play a compilation of Chet Baker recordings from early 1950;s through to the 1960s (in a group with Frank Strozier) and followed it up with Sonny Rollin's "The Bridge." I won't do that again and I was staggered by the gulf in musicianship. It was far wider than I had supposed with even the "edgier" material almost sounding like test card music in comparison with Rollins masterpiece. Baker was capable of stellar performances with the likes of Paul Bley or aligned himself with avant gardists like Richard Twardzik to make himself more interesting. He was also capable of being hugely anodyne and if the selection on my Compact Jazz CD was representative, not on a par with anything Blue Note could put out at this time or Miles Davis's groups. This year I've been listening almost non-stop to jazz from 50's / 60's and having returned to Chet Baker was staggered by how modest his abilities were. He is a bit like a 1950's Red Nichols in my opinion and his music sounds inferior with the passage of time whereas "The Bridge" still sounds contemporary.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

"Chet Baker.... was staggered by how modest his abilities"

Well, you are in a class of one because everyone who played with him, from Mulligan to Russ Freeman to Paul Bley, to BrookM to Harold Danko is on record as to how truly remarkable (and moving) he could be when engaged.

Jazz is not giving marks out of ten at the bright boys comp, it REALLY isn't.

BN

And I'd add George Coleman who thought Chet was a jumped up clown UNTIL he cut those Prestige sides with him.

[Ian Thumwood]

Miles didn't rate Chet Baker and was very disparaging about his abilities. There are some recordings (such as the Bley duet) which are pretty profound yet I think that the passage of time leaves some reputations over-turned. I'm not endeavouring to rank jazz musicians but I've found that the recent play list in my car make Baker seem noticeably inferior to a degree that I found surprising. Working in Croydon of late, I spend a lot of time travelling in my car and get to play quite a bit of music. The Miles Davis recordings from the late 50's and 60's seem a cut above everything else but albums by musicians as diverse as Tristano, Joe Henderson, Horace Silver, Jimmy Heath, Hampton Hawes, Oliver Nelson, Freddie Hubbard , Kenny Dorham, Grant Green, etc just seem to have improved with age. I just don't feel that any of the bands on the Chet Baker CD I played came within touching distance of anything of these other records which continually impress. I can't believe just how over-looked musicians like Kenny Dorham have been. Even his earlier recordings have a poise and craftsmanship about them which is staggering. Chet Baker's music may have it's merits and obviously it's advocates amongst fans and musicians but I don't think his output really squares with the better jazz that was on offer at the same time. By contract, the Sonny Rollins record "The Bridge" is incredible and belies it's age. The fact that this band only made one record is tragic - if Rollins only made this one record his reputation would have been secure. The pairing with Jim Hall was inspired even if the guitarist didn't have the tragic cache of Baker.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Having just shouted at you Ian, hugely enjoyed your "Lisa" request on JRR!

Wonderful stuff that should wake up the JRR empire loyalists. So many thanks for that.

Great.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Bluesnik

Please you liked the track. It was edited after the bass solo but you got a good impression as to what this group of Chicago-based musicians are up to. I really love "Here now." A lot of the material is what you might call "Dixieland" but even hackneyed tunes like "I've found a new baby" are so radical as to sound like new compositions. There are some very tasty originals too. I thought that you might have found the music to be too close to earlier forms of jazz but , reading your remarks about Ayler on the other thread this morning, wondered that you might actually appreciate this.
Here is another track from the record - probably the most relaxed tune on the album:-

I sometimes feel that I am the only person listening to these records. The current crop of Chicagoans are almost completely under the radar with vibes player Adam Adasiewicz being the highest profile player albeit more through his work with peter Brotzmann.

If you liked this album, Jason Roebke's "High / Red / Centre" includes an almost identical line up but takes it's cues from Ellington's 1930's / 40's small groups but again mixing in the free playing as well as the energy of Mingus. The other records work pursuing are Adasiewizc's group Roll Down and a record called "Varmint" which probably has the edge over his more recnt trio "Sun Rooms" insofar that if features a quintet, again with Josh Berman on cornet. They mainly play originals as well as Andrew Hill's "The Griots."

I love the range of a lot of contemporary jazz but would have to say that, increasingly, the younger players are losing the edginess and the kind of shock value that more progressive jazz used to enjoy. For my money, there is almost a feel that these musicians are almost in denial of everything that has happened since the 1970's and picked up afresh from the avant garde of the 1960's. Consequently, it isn't given over to modishness and has an integrity that gives it the edge over so much of what is being played in New York. Most of the players are mid thirties with the trombonist Jeb Bishop probably the longest established having been previously a stalwart of Ken Vandermark's groups.

[Ian Thumwood]

I've posted this before but it this doesn't restore your faith in the current jazz scene, nothing else will:-

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I've posted this before but it this doesn't restore your faith in the current jazz scene, nothing else will:-

Really great Ian and completely new to me so MUCH thanks again. I was just thinking how good Charlie Haden and Higgins were, that 'double bang' when Billy kicks back in after Charlie's solo, and thinking, well nothing else is coming up and then your track burst in.

Smashing stuff and as you say, restores faith even in one as jaded as me. Made my day.

Best. BN.

[Tom Audustus]

Only one record by a big band - the under-rated "Joyride" by Stanley Turrentine with an orchestra directed by Oliver Nelson with Herbie Hancock at the piano.

I've just been reading a book on the history of Blue Note and it points out that the main reason why they did not record big bands was down to finance. The label was for most of the time run on a shoe-string budget and they simply couldn't afford the upfront investiment in big band records until the take over by Liberty Records in 1965.

[Ian Thumwood]

Tom

I guessed that finance would have played a part.

On Amazon market-place they have been selling Blue Note CD for absolute peanuts and it is impossible not to resist. It is a label that is full of contradictions. I have just been listening to Horace Silver & the Jazz Messengers which includes the classic recording of "The Preacher" as well as the ultra-hip "Doodlin'." Having read about Silver's desire to sound like a big band, this quintet recording serves to reinforce this impression. I'd never really been a fan of Silver before but having read about his wanting to have a group that could swing with the power of the second Basie band, it all makes sense to me now. There is an amazing amount of writing in this music and the arrangements are the key to the success of these records. Silver is a so-so pianist, maybe a bit prone to playing clichés but his ability to write cracking arrangements that always have a wonderful sense of architecture about them has made me a convert. Fair enough, tunes like "The Preacher" are pretty simplistic yet the arrangement raises this in to something else. This record still owes a debt to Charlie Parker (Mobley is more "boppish" that I had previously heard him play ) but Silver is fashioning something different where the music is encased in a well-rehearsed arrangement where the charts build up to a climax. I agree with the liner notes I read in "blowing the blues away" that these are miniature big band arrangements and the appeal for more "modern -minded" bandleaders like Woody Herman to perform this music is all to clear to appreciate.