Originally posted by Tenor Freak
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Thanks TF - lovely stuff on an early autumn night. -
Yes, tres nice. I listened to the full album this morning on Utube. Hicks is excellent on every track, often the most interesting.Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
Re Jackie's 'natural sharpness', weirdly it doesnt seem to apply to his rare tenor outings. On his "Long drink of the blues' (Prestige), he sounds very good and very Rollins. I would not have guessed it was him. In fact I still wonder if Sonny just 'happened' to be passing.
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That Hank Mobley track is staggering. The best thing about it is the piano and the excellent time by the rhythm section. How can you go wring with that backing behind you? What is odd is that I would never have recognised that as Mobley has I not been informed beforehand. The tone is sharp but there is a bite about the playing which has replayed the easy-going bounce of his earlier work. His tone is much harder and the music is edgier as a result. The phrasing is also massively different and it seems almost that he was trying to capture some of Coltrane's sound in his playing.
Much is made of Coltrane's influence on his "angry brood" but he also had a massive pull on be-bop players so that the likes of Art Pepper would be totally transformed. In Pepper's case, I think his later work is actually much better as a consequence but from the "Hi Voltage" track, I can appreciate how some people feel that the sunny style that Mobley could produce as his best had lost it's polish. One of the weirdest manifestations of Coltrane's shadow impinging on other styles is Fred Jackson's "Hootin' and tootin'" which, in my opinion is the apogee of the Soul Jazz movement captured on Blue Note. Jackson came from an R n B background and I think the album probably sounded more commercial at the time it was committed to tape that it does now. He is capable of honks and slap-tonguing which plants him firmly in a bar-walking style yet there is also a hardness and indeed soulfulness which really sounds indebted to John Coltrane. I can understand why it is something of a cult record. This is the stand-out track for me on what is an absolute classic of it's oeuvre:-
As an aside, I see Manchester minimalist trio "Go Go Penguin" have now been signed to Blue Note. Slipping standards, etc, etc.Comment
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The tenor saxophonist I've been listening to most this year is Joe Henderson, initially as the fascination has been for the work of trumpeter Kenny Dorham. I'm now finding myself listening to almost anything by him on Blue Note as I just think he was the best tenor player they ever had on their roster. I love Wayne Shorter but I am finding Henderson's work from this period more compelling in some ways than Shorter, at least from a rhythmic point of view. A few weeks back I went through the Abersold play-a-long of his music and must admit found it extremely difficult. Something like "inner Urge" is deceptively hard. Shorter is more of an abstract player these days but his work in the 1960's still had that degree of musical intelligence about it that I love.
It is strange that Rollins and Coltrane seem such towering figures as I am not convinced that Shorter and Henderson were actually that much behind them. Henderson seems so under-rated and maybe more of an influence on today's tenor players than the other three - especially as there seems to be a bit of a downer on anyone player too close to Coltrane at the moment. Henderson's style is very approachable but the harmony is often pretty altered even when he is playing a blues. (Many of his compositions are actually blues albeit stuffed full of altered harmonies.) Like Rollins, he is capable of churning out grooving phrases in a constant stream. The stuff with Dorham is special but I really like "Inner urge" and the track "El Barrio" captures the essence of his playing for me with the use of multi-phonics and Latin rhythms which twist and turn.
"Page One" is probably his greatest achievement even if I think "Our thing" runs it close. Even ofother people's sessions he is a stand out with something like Larry Youngs' "unity" being a good example or even Tyner's "The Real McCoy" despite the attempt of Van Gelder to ruin the disc with the inability to properly capture the sound of Elvin Jones' drums - this record is painful listening in the way the cymbals are mutated in to a muddy, swooshing sound.
Here is an assessment by Don Byron which is interesting:-
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"Spike Wells recalls how during his time with the Hayes quartet, Tubby virtually wore out his copies of Henderson's classic Blue Note LPs. This point is worth expanding upon; the language of John Coltrane, whilst indisputably something about which Tubby was both enthusiastic and curious, was not his natural musical environment. Tubby's latter day enthusiasm for Joe Henderson and Booker Ervin reveals much about his thinking. Both these players trod a very personal middle ground between the dominating twin influences of Trane and Rollins, something which I think Tubbs saw as practically useful." - Simon Spillet.
Hayes composition "Inner Splurge "
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I have been listening to Mobley's "Soul Station" today. The comments in favour with this disc are generally in line with my opinion although, as good as Mobley is, I don't think it is a particularly demanding session. It is weird to learn that it was recorded as late at 1960. In my opinion, it is much better than "Roll call" which is pretty uninspired but nowhere as near as good as "No room for squares." The problem for me is the rhythm section is pretty relaxed with Blakey not being an intrusive as normal yet totally lacking the spark of Philly Joe jones. It is a solid and dependable record where no one really puts a step wrong or plays a phrase that is out of place. The relaxed vibe of the programme is a key component in this. That said, "Soul Station" is good but I have still to hear a performance from Mobley that is anywhere as good as that on "Whistle Stop."
It is strange to see this album classified as a Modern Jazz record whereas it does seem to me to be pretty mainstream. The music could have been made almost any when during the preceding decade. Listening to Tyshawn Sorey this week as well has been an intriguing experience as he shares Blakey's bombast yet the odd accentuations and weird meters shows you just how far rhythm has progressed since 1960. "Soul Station" is the kind of record that someone like Scott Hamilton would put out today (with considerably less fanfare) whereas even "veteran" performers such as Billy Hart who I hear live earlier in the week still sounds more oblique when he swings. When I was getting in to jazz in the 1980's Blakey seemed to relish in the role of mentor to the up-coming generation of musicians and accorded almost guru-like status by starry-eyed acolytes in this country such as Courtney Pine. Blakey would probably be pushing towards his centenary were he still around and he would probably sound as much as an anachronism in 2015 as someone like Chick Webb would have sounded in 1960 when he made the record with Mobley. Chronology is really weird with records made by someone like Joe Henderson on the same label still sounding contemporary or efforts by the likes of Bobby Hutcherson and Andrew Hill retaining their "outside" credentials.Comment
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Wrong wrong wrong! On this, you are the clock striking thirteen.
But, as I am in a good birthday mood, ck/out Lee Morgan's "Procrastinator", Wayne, Hutcherson, Higgins etc, a Bluenote subtle gem, with great writing etc. My favorite Lee so far. And also Freddie Hubbard's " Here to Stay ", Les Messengers with Philly Joe in for Blakey. Superb, no grandstanding and highly intelligent.
Picked both of these up last week.
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Happy Birthday
I will have to be a bit more careful with buying more records as I have been a bit enthusiastic of date. The Mobley record is extremely polished and probably as well drilled as anything I have heard him on. The music is far better than "Roll call" but I think it is a really strong performance by Mobley.
Listening to the record in the car today, I would have to say that this is probably the most restrained and tasteful record I have heard Blakey appear on. For me, Mobley works better with a sparkier drummer and I much prefer the combination of the tenor player with Philly Joe Jones but Blakey doesn't flag here nor blast the soloist off the stage. He is a peculiar drummer where his aggression is really suited in some circumstances but unwelcome in others. For me, Jones is probably the most responsive drummer of his generation and I feel the element of dialogue makes him the ideal drummer for Mobley. He makes the perfect contrast to Mobley.
I am intrigued that you are suggesting that someone like Hamilton isn't ploughing the same farrow as Mobley. To my ears, Hamilton seems to fill the void and take the place of an earlier generation liken Sims, Philips, Cohn and Mobley. He is a strnage character. I have heard him perform many years ago and felt that he was outshone by Harry Allen who was sharing the bill. That said, Hamilton is probably due for more credit that he gets from any quarters.Comment
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Hello Ian
Glad you picked up on "Soul Station" - Interesting points you make, for me having grown up through the classic period of Blue note I see it differently to the way you do. I don't find myself comparing the music the way you do. At the time it was all a wonderful experience I loved the variety of sounds coming out of New York so I don't find myself comparing Hank to Joe or Bobby Hutcherson. The first Blue Note I bought was Bobby Hutcherson's Dialogue (with Sam Rivers) and the second was Horace Silver's "Blowing the blues away" then Ornette "at the Golden Circle vol 1"
I don't see the relevance of comparison with Scott Hamilton, Harry Allen and the like who are playing music out of its time, they are catering for the nostalgia crowd like the tribute bands in Pop music. Mobley was relevant in 1960 Scott Hamilton is not in 2015. Jason Roebke and Nicole Mitchell and the Chicago school are what I want to hear in todays music.
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Agree with that. The first Bluenote LPs I bought @ age 15 (as imports) were Donald Byrd's Fuego (avec Jackie) and Kenny Dorham's Whistle Stop. Whistle Stop, a classic and constant joy. I even bought coin cufflinks as per KD on the (very heavy card) album sleeve... well not quite, mine were from Cardiff's Woolies. And fell to bits in about a fortnight.Originally posted by elmo View Post
Music's held up though.
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I tend to agree. If one wants to find a British sort of equivalent to Scott Hamilton I think Alan Barnes provides one of the clearest examples, in that he came to prominence through Tommy Chase when the commercialised agenda of the mid-1980s was accented on recreating a very stylised, almost caricatured brand of late 1950s/early 1960s hard bop, and what was expected was to muck up on presenting the style with as much accuracy as could be mugged up to satisfy those who wanted to run free jazz out of the scene, along with what Chase considered its mamby-pamby arts council backing. Like all the right wing initiatives that characterised the Reagan-Thatcher era its ideology was dependent on a lot of disingenuousness and myth-making posturing, because Barnes was and is capable of quite "out" playing when the situation demands. Unlike a player from a previous generation such as Tony Coe, who was given to playing in all manner of styles and contexts from Mainstream to Avant-garde, for the Barneses and Hamiltons of our time creativity is consciously re-creative rather than innovative, and compared with the Trad in the 1950s and its wrongheaded nostalgia sets out to make jazz into an artifact signifying the manifestation of competitive (read capitalistic) values as being true to the music's spirit of survival (read black bourgois aspiration) - which is why Chase and Wynton all had in common this idea that free jazz, along with its mutuality and collectivist emancipatory ethos, was neither congruent with the new "realities" of individualist self-advancement nor the way for jazz musicians to be setting an example.Originally posted by elmo View Post
Of course these right wing attitudes in jazz are no longer to the fore today, but one consequence of them has I think ironically been the prominencing of the academic route into jazz over the value of bandstand experience gained from the start, and this is reflected not only in how the newer players reveal carefully blended partial influences in their playing which would have once been seen as mismatched, but also in the background of these college-educated musicians reflecting that of their parents being in a position to fork out for the expensive edication involved in acquiring their skills.Last edited by Serial_Apologist; 12-10-15, 22:47.Comment
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There is the point that many of the 'free' players in the US, immediate post sixties, were only too willing to get caught up in the college and campus scene as civil rights programs impacted on the arts and funding. Can't blame them as it provided some security as the clubs folded, but the embrace of academia and its career seduction didn't start with Marsalis.
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I think S.A's argument is far too simplistic - most jazz musicians (even Nicole Mitchell) are heavily involved in education now.
It is intriguing to look at whether a musician is ahead of the curve or not and whether it actually matters. I don't feel that Scott Hamilton is particularly modern yet do see him as being as "advanced" as Mobley. He is a musician I find myself being ambiguous about. I've seen Harry Allen who is very similar in tandem with Hamilton bad thought he was a far more interesting player although I do find Hamilton's eccentric behaviour a bit off-putting on stage. Hamilton is someone whose music I grew up with and I wouldn't write him off quite as rapidly as S.A. Back in the late 80's he made a staggeringly good album with Flip Philips which would probably confound doubters on this board. However, you need to consider that he was part of a scene with players like Jake Hanna and Dave McKenna who were basically pitching their tent in the kind of jazz the existed pre 1960. There was no manifesto and I don't think they ever ridiculed Free Jazz as Marsalis is alleged to have done.
Just as Hamilton represents a "mainstream ideal", I think Mobley's "Soul Station" can be seen as a summation of the state of the tenor in 1960. I find it annoying that he always gets billed as the "middle weight champion" as this ignores a lot of equally good players from that era who were in the second tier of things. Players like Jimmy Heath , for example, get overlooked - there is a review of a Blue Note album on Amazon where someone wrote that the disc was marred by the performance of the sub-par Jimmy Heath which seems really harsh whereas there seems to be a reluctance to be so critical of Mobley. For me, Mobley's musical ambitions were of a more modest scale and "Soul Station" shows how well this could be done. I haven't enjoyed it anywhere as much as "No Room for squares" and it is not the masterpiece that "Whistle stop" is where Dorham's writing is not only far more thoughtful that Mobley's blues or funky themes (as good as "This I dig of you" is) but actually inspires Mobley to what I feel is the best playing I have heard him produce on record. In my opinion, the better hard bop Blue Note discs are those where they are served by superior quality of composition whether we are talking about "Shades of Redd," the complete Herbie Nichols, Wayne Shorter's efforts, "Whistle Stop", "Cool struttin' " or some of the better Horace Silver records of which I am becoming increasingly fond. That said, for me the efforts of Kenny Dorham and Joe Henderson are a high point on the label.Comment
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Back on to the Blue Notes again. This time I have been listening to art Blakey's "The big beat" which I read somewhere as being his masterpiece. Whoever wrote this couldn't have been paying attention as the band is caught at the cusp of things between the style of the 1950's Jazz Messengers and the point at which the band mutated in to the aggregation which cut the skull-cracking violence unleashed on "Free for all." The album wasn't one I had heard of but the first listen in perplexing as the band is really well drilled yet only Lee Morgan's trumpet and Blakey impress with Wayne Shorter having not really found his identity with either the saxophone or his pen.
The Jazz Messengers are a really perplexing band as they typify "Hard Bop" yet the leader's drumming always seems a bit anachronistic. On "The Big Beat" Blakey is very much on form and doesn't drag the band behind as I sometimes feel his heavy 2 and 4 beat accent can sometimes do. I never feel that Blakey has the fluidity of either Philly Joe, Billy Higgins or Elvin Jones and, in the bombast stakes, I think he was quickly surpassed by Tony Williams. "The big beat" isn't a patch on the JM's better discs and I was surprised to read so many people laud it even though it wasn't a disc I was aware of beforehand. There seems to be a wealth of JM discs which have slipped the net (although I wish I had plumped for "Mosaic" instead) and the more I listen, the more you get the feel that Blakey was putting down records which captured a band with a clearly defined sound and philosophy whereby the point of being "innovative" wasn't on the agenda. I would say that he share this trait with Horace Silver and Cannonball too and think you can almost put these groups in a category with big bands where the group identity is paramount. I remember years ago Trevor Cooper ranting about "true" jazz not being concerned with arrangements and to be faithful to the music it is the improvisation that is paramount. Having listening to a lot of Silver and Blakey in 2015 I hadn't realised just how much arrangements were so central to these small groups too. "The big beat" is intriguing in that you get a sense of these charts being part of a "show" and that the questing element of someone like Coltrane or Jarrett wasn't at all what Blakey's bands were about. It never struck me before yet for all Blakey's bluster about the ability of soloists to cut it when performing with his groups and getting off stage when the solos had reached a climax, the framework of the arrangements was really important and I think that Blakey's music was tailored to suit an audience who wanted to be entertained and knew what they had turned up to hear as opposed to letting the lid come off, as John Surman described the kind of jazz that exploded on the scene in the late 1960's.Comment
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Reminds me of Ellington's response to an annoying fan, "All you see here is some guys trying to earn a living".
On their live dates Horace, Blakey et al did allow their bands to stretch out, think Benny Maupin really pushing it with Silver at Antibes? Bob Berg? In the studio, yes, perhaps less so, as Randy Brecker said, " Horace had total control of what he wanted, he stopped a perfect studio take when Mike played too many notes after being warned!" And it was Alfred Lion who valued clean ensembles over solos.
On a kind of related point, just listened to Miles at Monterey in 63? George Coleman is remarkable on that, pushing even more than Herbie and crew. Not such a great leap to Wayne...
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