'Whiplash' - 5 Academy Award Norminations for a film about jazz drumming - DIG THAT!

[charles t]

Posted the complete Sunday's L.A. Times article re: same on Platform 3 thread, but this excerpt says it all:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/envelope/la-et-mn-whiplash-writers-damien-chazelle-20141218-story.html

[Nick Armstrong]

Love your "Norminations" heading! Were they founded by the late Mr Wisdom?


PS - I could change it if you like. And your Platform 3 thread of the same name, I've slotted into the general 'Films at the Cinema' thread so that it can form part of that discussion. But yeah, why not a specific one here re: jazz drumming! )

[charles t]

Caliban:

"Norminations'...No, don't change. It's at the heart of the topic: Improvising.

[Ian Thumwood]

The film was at my cinema so quickly that it disappeared as soon as I had realised it was on. I've seen clips and it seems more of a film about the American education system than jazz. I know Charles is a fan too but there was a good film about jazz musicians in the 1990's with peter McNicholas whose title I forget. It was about a band in the 1960's and gave a good picture of the working life of a band.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i was surprisingly and violently appalled by this movie .... and any one who wants to be Buddy Rich is a nerd; it is a movie about bullying nerds to make them dysfunctional persons and lousy musicians .... it is a conceit of the movie that it is detached from what it portrays and just shows it, that camera is draped lovingly around every sickening act of psychopathy ... you may gather that i hated it ...

[charles t]

Calum: Your 'gatherings', reflect why I dithered whether to make the $$$-trek to Sunset Boulevard to initially watch.

So what won: my love for jazz (FEELINGS) - or - not digging the supposed sado-masochistic undertone (INTELLECT)?

Post Script: Nice Chinese lady at Video Depot saving for me upon DVD arrival 1p.m. tomorrow.

[Ian Thumwood]

I've only seen clips but it is interesting to see how ruthless the teacher is made to appear in the film. There are clips of the drummer's hand covered in blood - not sure if this is actually possible. What I would say is that someone infatuated by Buddy Rich would probably tolerate more extreme forms of behaviour.

Can't agree with you suggesting that Buddy Rich fans are nerds. In a nutshell he took swing era drumming to it's ultimate level. I'm not too enthused by his small group work but few drummer could beat him for driving a larger ensemble. A lot of younger kids today who may come from rock will always gravitate towards Rich before any other drummer. I know this from acquaintances who play rock and will not be aware of any other drummer in jazz as well as from students studying jazz. I think they tend to gravitate towards other drummers as they get older but I've had many discussions with drummers I've met as to who they like and the range is always terrific in it's breadth. Never heard any drummer diss Buddy Rich.

[charles t]

Two reminiscences, Ian:

As a kid...catching 'Battle of The Drums' at Jazz At The Philharmonic - Buddy Rich & Gene Krupa.

Sitting in front row of balcony and being amazed when B.R.'s hands transformed into a circumscribed blur of light - as they moved across the drum set.

(I have never seen that, ever.)

Talking to a former sax sideman of Buddy's who passed on the nugget that Buddy insisted all band members faced him while he soloed.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Their pieces required a high degree of skill to play.[citation needed] Thad Jones, a trumpeter who toured (and wrote) for the Count Basie Orchestra during the 1950s, led the group, was its main arranger, and was occasionally featured, most often on flugelhorn. Mel Lewis, co-leader, produced a drum style with the band that was unique for big bands.[1] The extent in which he was able to incorporate the loose, open approach of small group playing was a major innovation.[1] His cymbal work added a texture and richness that is one of the hallmarks of the band. Every big band drummer after Lewis has been influenced by him to some degree.[1]

The orchestra was arguably the most influential big band since the swing era.[1] It was also an unusual band; creating new styles, succeeding in an era where big bands were out of favor, and remaining integrated during racially tense periods.[1] The band initially was made of all-stars, but over time endeavored to showcase new talent (e.g. Jon Faddis). Jones's arrangements proved to be highly influential upon modern composers such as Maria Schneider, Bob Brookmeyer (who is also an alumnus), Jim McNeely, Bill Kirchner, Richard DeRosa, Bob Mintzer, Jerry Dodgion, and many others.[1] His songs built upon the innovations previously pioneered by jazz composers such as Duke Ellington and Charles Mingus. Since the mid-1980s, the band has been renamed the Vanguard Jazz Orchestra, continuing its tradition as the Village Vanguard's house band.

[Ian Thumwood]

Calum

I totally agree with everything written about that piece describing the Thad Jones / Mel Lewis band although I think it is probably fair to say that, with regards to modernity, I think it shared it's influence with Gil Evans who probably paved the way for a less section-derived style of composition which was dominant until the 2000's. Nowadays, I think that way of voicing and scoring has been advanced upon by writers being more informed by Classical techniques and have looked beyond harmony for innovation. Brookmeyer was writing charts for this band from the late 60's and I think he is hugely under-estimated as an influence on creatively minded arrangers.

As good as Lewis was, I don't think that his drumming has ever got anywhere near close to having the public perception of Buddy Rich. The only other drummer likely to have made a lasting impression outside jazz in popular music would have been Gene Krupa. Like it or not, Buddy Rich is the first name most people will come up with when mentioning "great" drummers with the likes of Cozy Powell and Pete Bonham probably close behind. In celebrity status, Rich is probably only second to Ringo Starr, albeit most people consider him to be something of a joke and not a serious musician. Given Rich's abrasive personality, it is clear to understand why Rich would be such a good role model in this film as he shared the tutor's personality and is a known figure. The drive and termination of Rich makes perfect sense in the case of the script-writer and will also resonate with anyone learning to play any style of drums.

I used to work with a Quantity Surveyor when I was in town who specialised in M & E as well as being a semi-pro drummer in his spare time. He usually played rock but loved jazz too and was pretty informed about the music despite being sceptical of what he called "Chalk Farm jazz" after witnessing a particularly abrasive gig at this venue given by Joe Lovano. He was not only a massive fan of Buddy Rich but also admired Mel Lewis too. I have never worked with anyone who had Brendan's sense of humour since and he would regularly have the office in tears of laughter with his stories. One of his best ones concerned his brother nearly running Mel Lewis over in his car when the drummer was playing at the Cork jazz festival and was crossing the road to get to a venue. I can never listen to anything with Lewis on without thinking about this story which was elaborate and extremely amusing. His stories about music would crack everyone up.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

yes Ian Gil Evans, and we might remember the Mulligan Concert Jazz Band as well

wish i'd heard that story!

well people are just misguided imv about drummers ... Jo Jones eh, the epitome of technique devoted to playing with others ....

[Ian Thumwood]

I think that the better drummers deserve their reputations but some of my favourites are not particularly lauded. I like drummers like Rich, Papa Jo and Philly Joe Jones, Elvin Jones, Jack DeJohnette and Tony Williams who are all sensational. However, I also love less-celebrated drummers like Sam Woodyard, Dave Tough, Chick Webb, Paul Motian (one of my absolute favourites), Adam Nassbaum, Peter Erskine and Ray Bauduc. Motian's trio is probably one of my all time favourite bands and his unique approach to the instrument is the antithesis of Rich yet no less swinging in my opinion. About two years ago I was talking to a young drummer who was raving about Mark Guilliana who sounds more of a rock drummer to my ears than someone who plays jazz. I've got one record with him on and it is ruined because of his approach. It just seems totally wrong and when I asked this student if he had ever heard Hamid Drake who was regularly on my play list at the time, he'd never come across his playing. Drake is an unassuming character yet someone I always feel brightens up any recording he his on. I've seen him perform live once but the group wasn't that great. He keeps things really simple and it is easy to appreciate when you hear him that his idol is Jo Jones, despite his reputation as being associated with the avant garde. I don't find him bombastic or showy yet Hamid Drake makes everything he appears on sound great.

I can understand why you are not fussed by Buddy Rich as his small group work is swamped by his approach to the drums but I also feel the same about someone like Art Blakey who I enjoy yet think was not always a sensitive accompanist or at least as attuned as Max Roach.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Roy Haynes and Alan Dawson and Kenny Clarke and Connie Kay ...... eh

[Flyposter]

Calum

I haven't yet seen the film, (not sure when it will be released here) but I would be interested in your reaction to this article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturecritics/11424646/Whiplash-turns-jazz-into-joyless-porn.html

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Calum

I haven't yet seen the film, (not sure when it will be released here) but I would be interested in your reaction to this article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/c...less-porn.html

it catches my views pretty well Flyposter; i found the film lacking any truth worth knowing about teaching, relationships and music .... even as a portrayal of abuse and compliance it is low grade stuff as the comparison to Full Metal Jacket makes clear