.... tidings of comfort and joy innit

[Serial_Apologist]

I still find KoB remarkable even after all these years. I don't tend to play it a lot but when I do catch it ...Sketches of Spain I don't think has worn so well.

Miles hired a few players in that "flux" period. Buddy Montgomery (Wes's brother) for a while on vibes. App he freaked out as they were just about tour Europe as he had a severe flight phobia. I wish the band with Sam Rivers had recorded more.

BN.

I read somewhere (maybe Ian Carr) that Rivers as temp was too "out", Miles not yet being ready at that point, but my guess is that there was too much resemblance to Dolphy's idiom in Sam's, Miles not having much liking for Eric, otherwise why would he have gone for the equally outside (in relative terms) Wayne Shorter. Because Wayne reminded him of 'Trane?

[Tenor Freak]

I wish there had been a studio recording of the sextet with Wayne and Joe on tenors...blimey if ever there was a supergroup in this genre that was it.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I wish there had been a studio recording of the sextet with Wayne and Joe on tenors...blimey if ever there was a supergroup in this genre that was it.

Nothing to do with Miles but for Joe nerds like me...

April 1966:

"In a surprise mood, tenor
saxophonist Joe Henderson abruptly
quit the Horace Silver Quintet in the
midst of the group's performance
before a Saturday night crowd at San
Francisco's Jazz Workshop on April 2.
Silver told Down Beat that the
tenorist's reported reason for leaving
was that drummer Roger Humphries'
playing 'was thwarting his solos.'...
The pianist, who said he did not
intend to bring union charges
against Henderson, indicated he
would add a new sideman upon
returning to New York City. Silver
said he had no intimation
Henderson was planning to leave,
though the tenor saxophonist had
asked the leader for a three-month
leave of absence to form a recording
group some months earlier. At that
time, Silver refused on the grounds
that by the time a replacement was
taught the group's library,
Henderson would be due to return.
Asked then if he wished to leave,
Henderson elected to remain." [DB:
19 May 1966 ].

Did Henderson ever record with Tony Williams?


BN.

[elmo]

Bluesie

Had a quick check re Joe recording with Tony Williams - Three sessions as far as I can see

Andrew Hill's classic Point of departure with Dolphy and KD on B/Note

Joe Henderson Qrt Relaxin at camarillo on Contemporary label (2 tracks)

One night at Blue Note Vol 1 with F Hubbard, Herbie, B Hutcherson and Ron Carter

I will have to replay the last two sessions but I always thought the Andrew Hill album an absolute classic for all concerned and contrary to some critics opinions I think Kenny Dorham fitted into the band perfectly and the session would have suffered without his prescence.

elmo

[elmo]

Hank and D Byrd fit well with Tony Williams also - lovely Herbie Hancock composition

elmo

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Hank and D Byrd fit well with Tony Williams also - lovely Herbie Hancock composition

elmo

Ta! Yes completely forgot Una Mas! Agree about Kenny Dorham on PoD...wonderful and I think KD said he was very pleased with his playing in that 'out' context. A bit like Lee Morgan on 'Evolution', which is also superb and app was one of Lee's fav dates for his own work.

BN.

Fascinating in contrast to listen to Kenny on the Cecil Taylor Double Clutching date where KD totally ignores him 'rumbling' and just plays his fav. blues solo. As does Trane. Taylor was still angry years later!

[elmo]

"Fascinating in contrast to listen to Kenny on the Cecil Taylor Double Clutching date where KD totally ignores him 'rumbling' and just plays his fav. blues solo. As does Trane. Taylor was still angry years later"

I like that session, apparently Cecil wanted Ted Curson but United Artists had already lined up the musicians and were not going to compromise.

I like the fact that musicians are usually more open minded than than the fans who get caught up in boxing things up into classifications and narrow definitions. I always amazed me that fans of such a free and expressive music could be so closed minded and intolerant, witness the letters page of Jazz Journal. I can't believe that although we like the same music I can't imagine that I would have anything in common the typical Jazz Journal letter writer.

Yes I think Lee Morgan on "Evolution" is very special, wish that group had been able to exist as aworking group and recorded further.

Hank Mobley also narrowly classed a hard Bopper worked with Richard Muhal Abrams in the 1960's/70's and apparently the composing and arranging work he did with that band was really inspired.

elmo

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well he played pretty well with Elvin J on my fav Joe album [recorded when he was still with Silver in '64 i believe]:

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

"Fascinating in contrast to listen to Kenny on the Cecil Taylor Double Clutching date where KD totally ignores him 'rumbling' and just plays his fav. blues solo. As does Trane. Taylor was still angry years later"

I like that session, apparently Cecil wanted Ted Curson but United Artists had already lined up the musicians and were not going to compromise.

I like the fact that musicians are usually more open minded than than the fans who get caught up in boxing things up into classifications and narrow definitions. I always amazed me that fans of such a free and expressive music could be so closed minded and intolerant, witness the letters page of Jazz Journal. I can't believe that although we like the same music I can't imagine that I would have anything in common the typical Jazz Journal letter writer.

Yes I think Lee Morgan on "Evolution" is very special, wish that group had been able to exist as aworking group and recorded further.

Hank Mobley also narrowly classed a hard Bopper worked with Richard Muhal Abrams in the 1960's/70's and apparently the composing and arranging work he did with that band was really inspired.

elmo

The story I heard (via Organissimo) is that a few years later Cecil Taylor confronted Dorham on the street in NY shouting, "you wrecked my record date". Dorham said sorry he felt that way but now he was much more sympathetic to the 'new' music. Taylor shouted, "Too fkg late now!".

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

stand out for me on Jon3 rounduo is the Julian Arguiles album, great stuff

http://www.camjazz.com/8052405141194-circularity-cd.html

Tim Garland must not belong to the right clubs or agents ... no mention

[Ian Thumwood]

[QUOTE=elmo;458101
I like the fact that musicians are usually more open minded than than the fans who get caught up in boxing things up into classifications and narrow definitions. I always amazed me that fans of such a free and expressive music could be so closed minded and intolerant, witness the letters page of Jazz Journal. I can't believe that although we like the same music I can't imagine that I would have anything in common the typical Jazz Journal letter writer.



elmo[/QUOTE]

I totally agree but always felt that Jazz Journal always seemed to pander to fans with a very narrow taste of, at least, only seemed to like the music recorded from it's inception up until the late 60's. There was one reviewer who favoured a lot of contemporary stuff but with Steve Voce at the helm, the magazine always catered for a particular age group / generation and could be extremely non-critical of certain favourites even when they were below par. For me, when I bought the magazine in the 1980's, it seemed really out of touch and the letters page was almost legendary for the incendiary letters regarding bands such as Loose Tubes. (I always thought that Trevor Cooper must have written that infamous letter which said that Loose Tubes didn't play jazz and that they should call the row they produce something else!)

In a weird way, the music categories of modernist and Trad seem total irrelevant to the extent that I would imagine that former "enemies" in the 60's might now be more partisan in the light of how far the music has travelled since , say , 1970. Taylor may not be too pleased with the contribution of some of the musicians on his record date and question their sympathy to his style yet Taylor now seems every bit a part of the tradition he was trying to escape. There were a multitude of individual musicians in the 50's / 60's who had their own , unique perspectives yet I think most from that generation would have been broadly compatible. Certainly, I think jazz is far more diverse today than it was 50 years ago and I think musicians may be willing to encounter other players from other spectrums that in the past. The exchanging of ideas in 2014 is far richer than in the 60's when the world was a bigger place and hooking up with savvy musicians from other communities was either impossible because there weren't the players there or the ease with which this can be achieved via the internet.

I'm not so sure whether all musicians are quite as open-minded as Elmo suggests as I have heard and read a variety of comments from a range of musicians from different styles who have made contrasting statements. I've read some pretty negative remarks by Kenny Barron regarding Taylor's style of playing which did surprise me albeit not quite as hostile as those remarks made by Dick Hyman. It is fascinating to hear the results when musicians embrace other styles or oeuvres yet there is no guarantee of either success or failure. For me, this is part of the allure of jazz. It is great when it actually works. As for Dorham not being modern enough, I feel he was a head of his time and a fascinating player. Had he lived longer, I think he would have been more influential. That said, his playing really reminds me of Ambrose Akinmusire who share Dorham's ability not to be rigidly constrained by the trumpet's traditional role in the music.

[Ian Thumwood]

Another issue of live Miles material, this time from 1960 with Coltrane's final bow in the legendary band. I must admit that I wasn't aware that Sonny Stitt was later recruited for a second European tour later in the same year. This seems a really strange employment as Stitt always sound like be was very much the bopper.

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/all-of-you-the-last-tour-1960-by-c-michael-bailey.php

I always find the range of the repertoire quite narrow with the live concerts with some of the more famous compositions associated with Davis (or Shorter, in later editions of the band) never seeming to get a live airing. This set seems particularly uninspired albeit the Volume one bootleg of the second quintet had a similar narrow focus yet remained full of invention - the tunes / heads almost being irrelevant due to the direction that the improvisation went off in. In some respects this sounds almost like some of the great classical recitalists of the same era who had a given repertoire and rarely stepped outside of this. I think that the odd thing about this selection is that, other than "The Theme", all these tunes feature in the Real Book and, in 2015, would be considered to be extremely hackneyed. Davis seems to have thrived on familiar material that was known in intimate detail so that anything new would not have got a look in. I'm not aware of tunes like "Blue in Green" or "Milestones" being performed in concert let alone more obscure material from albums like "Milestones" or "Seven steps", etc, etc.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I've got both the Stitt and Trane Miles concert sets from Paris. They make a fascinating contrast not least in the audience's vocal hostility to Coltrane's ferocity at times, and which he cheerfully ignored, and Stitt playing above his game. There was also real anger, audience and 'critical', towards Trane in Holland. On the Scandinavian leg they seemed more aware.


I think the cast of tunes is not that important. Things like Walkin became transformed with each band and the fact that they were still paying lip service to it with Shorter/Williams etc tells you something of its utility as a platform. Miles played Milestones at Antibes in 69 with Corea etc. You also find things like Josua and Footprints appearing in those years.

Coltrane played MFT from straight to destruction over the years right up to his death I suspect as something an audience could at least recognise if only for seconds.

BN.

One fascinating thing I found recently is the Ray Charles band playing Ornette's Tears Inside as a concert opener! (Turin 1971). True it becomes a big band blues but I wonder who brought that into the book. Crawford or Newman I guess.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

And a final point. Worth reflecting on the nature of these tours. Miles quintet was playing two concerts a night throughout Europe. All at pretty full stretch. It must have been hugely demanding in just a touring and physical sense. I caught up with some bits of film of Johnny Griffin playing in Europe in the late 60s and its full on even for what must have been just another gig for him. Sometimes we forget what it takes....and is given.


And with that I collect my gold watch and retire from the bored. Its been fun. Mostly.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Bluesnik

I think the problem from a listener's perspective is that the material seems well worn. A lot of the material consists of blues (same as is the situation on the studio recording of "Milestone" ) or pretty minimal material like "So what." The standards like "Green Dolphin Street" and "'Round midnight" offer enough to get your teeth in to and "If I was a bell" isn't too complicated, "All of you" is one of those "odd" ballads like "Darn that dream" that open your ears. From the perspective of today, I suppose it is difficult to grasp that thus material was quite radical. However, the fact that most amateur jazz musicians have called these tunes in countless jam sessions since the early 70's has blunted their impact. A lot of people probably know these tunes without looking at the lead sheet albeit I what Miles and his band did to them was akin to alchemy.

I knew "Walkin'" was still being performed later on but this is probably due to the fact that it is a blues and even the most "famous" modern jazz blues theme after "Blue Monk." "Footprints" is an altered blues too, of course.

It is quite amazing that Coltrane drew so much hostility as the kind of solos he produced on "Milestones" seemed to set the template for many European players who followed in the 1960's. He doesn't seem "difficult" to our ears and sounds more thorough than being demanding. It is a strange thing that the audiences in 1960 struggled with the harmonic ideas and perhaps failed to recognise the forms played as well. Now this kind of stuff is part of the vocabulary. The same also applies to Ornette's music which again is heavily indulgent in it's use of blues form or even inflection. I really struggle to accept that Ornette to so outside as his music is equally rooted in tradition - maybe more so than Miles in this respect. If you can dig Charley Patton, you can dig Ornette. Ornettes use of melody as a basis of improvisation also marks him as a relative of some of jazz's earliest practitioners. I don't say this to detract from Ornette but to argue that he is 100% part of the heritage even when he was rewriting the script on jazz tradition. To my ears, this is the same music as Armstrong, Morton and Bechet irrespective of banjos.