All done in the best possible taste.......................

[Ian Thumwood]

Post modern version.....

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

"Welcome to the Kitsch'n d'Or,
A friendly, family run French restaurant in
Southsea, specialising in provincial French food
at realistic, affordable prices."

Mmmm, sounds inviting.

What about a radical theatre company called "Kitch and Sink"? Oh, there was one in the 70s? Cherie Blair was in it. Must of missed that.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

"Welcome to the Kitsch'n d'Or,
A friendly, family run French restaurant in
Southsea, specialising in provincial French food
at realistic, affordable prices."

Mmmm, sounds inviting.


BN.

Meghan Trainor looks like she eats there.

[Ian Thumwood]

On the subject of kitsch, I caught two dumbed down programmes on television last night. The first dealt with Roman Britain which showed some interesting sites but neglected to give any proper history whereas Len Goodman's Big band programme on BBC 4 was a travesty. After about 30 mins, I switched off as this seemed to be a nostalgia show as opposed to providing any genuine analysis or even clips of decent music.

I suppose that the biggest criticism stemmed from the introduction of how British audiences got a taste for black, American music is the style of big band swing which became increasingly popular during WWII and then showed a quick picture of Duke Ellington before concentrating on Glenn Miller. It staggered me that Goodman seemed quite content to trot out some well-worn clichés about big bands before taking the conversation off in another direction and discussed singers. It was a nostalgia fest and the only thing of interest was seeing the collection of ted Heath charts. I was staggered to appreciate the BBC's rather cool relationship with this band which was seen as being too rowdy. It was then followed up my clips of the band performing. The performances were hugely impressive and showed the ability of this band. It was easily the equal of many other American bands of the time such as Les Brown, Ray Anthony or Billy May and, like these, seemed to be devoid of jazz - even though Brown sometimes let his sidemen off the hook and perform a version of "West Coast lite." Heath's band does seem incredibly staid by today's comparison and if the music was performed with panache and style, it also seemed detached from a time that was contemporary with the revival of Ellington's band, the oeuvre-defining second testament Basie band and Gil Evans' work with Miles.

It seemed a missed opportunity to me and a celebration of the more commercial aspects of this music as opposed to the true historical picture or even a wider consideration of the artistic merits. There seems to be a consensus these days that swing and big band jazz stemmed from bands like Fletcher Henderson, MCKP, Moten, Basie, Kirk, Ellington, etc and the likes of the Dorseys, Millers, Heaths only superficially had any relationship with the kind of innovations that the black, pioneer bands had produced.

did anyone else see the programme or indeed see the programme through to it's conclusion.

[Serial_Apologist]

On the subject of kitsch, I caught two dumbed down programmes on television last night. The first dealt with Roman Britain which showed some interesting sites but neglected to give any proper history whereas Len Goodman's Big band programme on BBC 4 was a travesty. After about 30 mins, I switched off as this seemed to be a nostalgia show as opposed to providing any genuine analysis or even clips of decent music.

I suppose that the biggest criticism stemmed from the introduction of how British audiences got a taste for black, American music is the style of big band swing which became increasingly popular during WWII and then showed a quick picture of Duke Ellington before concentrating on Glenn Miller. It staggered me that Goodman seemed quite content to trot out some well-worn clichés about big bands before taking the conversation off in another direction and discussed singers. It was a nostalgia fest and the only thing of interest was seeing the collection of ted Heath charts. I was staggered to appreciate the BBC's rather cool relationship with this band which was seen as being too rowdy. It was then followed up my clips of the band performing. The performances were hugely impressive and showed the ability of this band. It was easily the equal of many other American bands of the time such as Les Brown, Ray Anthony or Billy May and, like these, seemed to be devoid of jazz - even though Brown sometimes let his sidemen off the hook and perform a version of "West Coast lite." Heath's band does seem incredibly staid by today's comparison and if the music was performed with panache and style, it also seemed detached from a time that was contemporary with the revival of Ellington's band, the oeuvre-defining second testament Basie band and Gil Evans' work with Miles.

It seemed a missed opportunity to me and a celebration of the more commercial aspects of this music as opposed to the true historical picture or even a wider consideration of the artistic merits. There seems to be a consensus these days that swing and big band jazz stemmed from bands like Fletcher Henderson, MCKP, Moten, Basie, Kirk, Ellington, etc and the likes of the Dorseys, Millers, Heaths only superficially had any relationship with the kind of innovations that the black, pioneer bands had produced.

did anyone else see the programme or indeed see the programme through to it's conclusion.

No but there was a programme on "A Kind of Blue" on Radio 4 at 9.30 yesterday morning unnanounced in RT, which I'd have missed had it not been trailed before the 9 am news. Jimmy Cobb was wheeled out to say stuff I'd heard him say in another programme, or others, but so little was said, with such paucity of detail of any kind (blue or otherwise) (other than about the first two tracks) that I assumed this to have been a truncated version of a longer programme broadcast previously elsewhere.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

15 seconds of Len on Glen and i was gorrn, far far away

[Ian Thumwood]

Overall the problem made me very sceptical of Len Goodman's knowledge on the matter. He seemed to wallow in nostalgia whilst being incapable of considering the broader picture of big band music in the 1950's. I got the impression that his tastes might have been far broader than the programme suggested and that he was largely concerned with recapturing his youth.

Miller seems more bizarre with the passage of time so that his music seems even more divorced from the main narrative of big band music which, I suppose, would follow along the lines of Redman, Henderson, Goodman, Basie, Herman, Gillespie, Gil Evans, Mulligan and Thad Jones / Mel Lewis with Ellington and Strayhorn at the very pinnacle. I was staggered that Heath's band book was still in existence and although the orchestra had it's own identity and performed with unquestionable verve, I wasn't aware that the arrangements it performed had any merit beyond popularist charts. I'm not too familiar with his work and know the likes of Kenny Graham and Stan Tracey wrote charts for it, yet it never seems to have been a band in my perception that churned out anything remotely original or challenging. It was amazing that Dankworth wasn't mentioned at all - although, like Calum, I had to switch off after a while as the programme had no interest to me.

[John Wright]

Ian, I did watch some of the Len Goodman 'Big Band' programme, and switched off part through, and apart from the Ted Heath discussions I thought it was awful. Actually I'm not a great fan of the Heath big band and would have liked Goodman to have mentioned the Squadronnaires and Lou Preager's band - it was supposed to be about Britain's love of big bands! Too much on Glenn Miller - looking at my 78 record collection there were a lot of other records/bands popular with the British music fans then. Good to see Ivy Benson's band mentioned, I have some of their records, but Goodman seemed more interested in the sex life of the girls, quite appalling. Len Goodman is a dancer who doesn't know the music. He 'presented' a programme on 1930s British bands a while back which betrayed his ignorance too.

[Ian Thumwood]

John

It is amazing that a programme like this could have been commissioned for "serious" channel like BBC4. the views expressed seemed to be more redolent of those expressed 40 -odd years ago. The running down of the Benson band without considering their music is a constant flaw - don't think I've ever heard a serious assessment of their music which is odd when you consider the calibre of some of the musicians in that band.

It is unfortunate that the record buying public never truly understood big bands in this country nor were aware of anything other than the white orchestras from the States. I find it funny that this music has an audience which is unique, rather like brass band music and may or may not include an appreciation of jazz. Whilst I feel it is fair to say that there were plenty of big bands as late at the early 60's who had nothing to do with jazz, Goodman seemed oblivious of how jazz manifested itself in the big band field in the UK. I don't recall any mention of Dankworth whereas he seemed content to mention the singers who ultimately drove the nails in to the coffin of big band music.

I do find it funny just how little variety there was amongst the British big bands in the period up until the 1960's. Even bands lead by Lyttelton and Hayes seemed to include a multitude of Heath-staffers who would have been appreciated for their sight reading abilities. By the mid 60's the scene started to change with the likes of Westbrook, McGregor, Ardley and Gibbs yet and culminated with the likes of Loose Tubes who were wholly original. Yet, for a large proportion of fans of big band music, Heath was placed on a pedestal and considered to be the only worthy rival the UK produced in competition with the States. Granted that Heath's band was venerated so much and shaped british big bands so thoroughly until the 1960;s, it is small wonder that he proved so enduring yet , to my ears, he is almost like our Glen Miller insofar that his shadow masks the wider picture. Goodman's programme was a massive an embarrassing failure when a revisionist approach is overdue.