Birthday

[french frank]

Take a look: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/galleries/p02dl1lk

Love the guitar and pipe! Don't see many pipes these days, do you?

[Quarky]

Love the guitar and pipe! Don't see many pipes these days, do you?

You have started me off, french frank! With apologies to Alyn, my favourite jazz presenter, it's amazing how many British Jazz musicians / presenters are ighly heducated and/ or from privileged backgrounds. Peter Clayton perhaps an exception.

Considering Jazz has its roots in the working class of an ethnic minority, I sometimes wonder whether this has been a negative influence on the development of UK Jazz.

[Ian Thumwood]

Considering Jazz has its roots in the working class of an ethnic minority, I sometimes wonder whether this has been a negative influence on the development of UK Jazz.

To some degree I would agree but I don't think the likes of Jelly Roll Morton, Coleman Hawkins, Fletcher Henderson or Duke Ellington would have considered themselves "Working class," nor the proto-jazz musicians in the heavily - unionised band of James Reece Europe. There is a very good case for the development of jazz being aligned to the emergence of a black, educated, middle class.

I would also have to say that it is probably more prudent to align jazz with the educated left wing. I think that this was easily the case by the late thirties with jazz being promoted by the likes of John Hammond , the Commodore record label and clubs like Café Society all of which had left wing / communist sympathies. You can also project this on to the likes of Norman Granz who had similar connections in the 1940's / 50's.

I think the failure of jazz to assert itself in the UK to the degree that happened in the States was that the music evolved there and managed to out down extremely strong roots in a very short time. It's amazing that a concert such as Benny Goodman's in 1938 was able to pay homage to a tradition whose recorded legacy was then little over twenty years old! The racial aspect of the music is also significant but it is strange how a "white jazz culture" quickly emerged by the late 1920's whereas this tendency was marginalised in the UK where larger ensembles provided a different function from the US. British bands always seemed to be "sweet" or "dance bands" and no British big band from the 30' s / 40's managed to produce a body of work that I think matched the American bands. By the time that jazz in the UK was twenty years old, there was little tradition and a recognition amongst fans that British jazz (with a few exceptions) was inferior. It's weird how the ex-pat Americans always seemed to head for Paris / Stockholm and not London. Even long term visitors like Benny Carter, concerts by Armstrong & Ellington and recordings by Waller never managed to establish any sort of tradition. I suppose WW2 had a lot to do with this.

After the war I feel the appreciation of jazz started to change but the split in to Trad v Modern effectively created two pretty negative fan bases as opposed to one positive one which could recognise that there was relatively little difference between the two styles of jazz. It doesn't seem so divisive now as most fans will listen to jazz from all eras. When you couple this with the actual quality of British jazz produced prior to 1945 where you have to be pretty selective and determined to find the real gems that exist, it's not surprising that jazz has struggled in the UK. Small wonder that Beethoven called Britain the "land without music" - no composers of note between Purcell and the late 19th century other than Handel - who was German! Even in the current climate, it's interesting to see what is promoted by the press as representing the best of British music. The fact that Britain has produced some terrific jazz musicians since 1945 is evident of how passionate the practitioners are for developing this art form. For me, jazz is the most significant musical development in the 20th century and also a key event in the history of art full stop. You can appreciate that creative musicians in the UK would want to be part of the process.

If any music in the UK aligns itself with "working class" it is pop music, especially bands that come from the North such as Oasis. However, I think it is really interesting that the music generated by most British pop acts is largely disposable and in no way comparable with say the country blues artists in the States of 1920's / 30's. As social commentary, the music the British bands have produced has been pretty anodyne and frequently banal. The music is truly to the lowest common denominator. I'm grateful that jazz didn't develop as something "of the people" , especially in the UK, as there would be little worthwhile to talk about. It's funny that the most lauded British pop group of all time, The Beatles, are so seriously over-rated. Musically, very little is happening and what does appeal, if often the work of George Martin. Sometimes they were lucky and managed to compose some good tunes yet, as dots on the page, the music isn't doing anything. Working class association in music will not generate more significant, honest, socially important music and even in the case of folk music (which I would profess not to like) , the results are also very mixed. It's a weird notion to cling to but I think the intelligence that is inherent with jazz and the technical prowess require to execute it means that the practitioner need more training / education to play it whereas the audience now needs to be more educated to play it. I don't buy the idea than working class = sincere and great music for one moment. If anything, it is the road to rack and ruin where a non-musician like Morrisey can be venerated as a genius when, in an oeuvre such as jazz, he would be held up as a laughing stock.

[LeMartinPecheur]

i know! They can cancel the next week's editions of both jrr and jlu and live-cast die meistersinger von der met instead!

yay!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Jazz in Britain has never recovered from the "Great Jazz Strike" of 1984-85 when the Thatcher regime closed down all the jazz clubs and threatened semi-pro saxophonists with mass unemployment. Entire jazz communities were smashed and the police and army beat up anyone carrying a Gil Evans LP. I was arrested for chalking "Forward Bluenote!" on the wall of the local jobcentre.

And what did the Labour Party do? Fek All, that's what they always do. Neil Kinnock openly rubbed his hands and said, "Put on Cliff's latest lads, Glenys and I hate that weirdo jazz militant muck".

BN. "A Jazz History - To die in Gerrard Street" OUP £45.99.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

[Serial_Apologist]

It's weird how the ex-pat Americans always seemed to head for Paris / Stockholm and not London. Even long term visitors like Benny Carter, concerts by Armstrong & Ellington and recordings by Waller never managed to establish any sort of tradition. I suppose WW2 had a lot to do with this.

You haven't mentioned the mutual MU/AFM visiting ban not applying on the Continent.

I think there's a lot to be said, cliche notwithstanding, that Trad was music played originally by left-wing politically-motivated working class amateur musicians from sarf London to beer-drinking lower middle class suburbanites and libertarian anarchist art students, while modern jazz was music played by working class semi-professional musicians from the East End or thereabouts to non-political aspirational spirits-drinking lower middle class baby boomers.

Those of us who are a mixture comprise an interesting sociological residue.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

You haven't mentioned the mutual MU/AFM visiting ban not applying on the Continent.

I think there's a lot to be said, cliche notwithstanding, that Trad was music played originally by left-wing politically-motivated working class amateur musicians from sarf London to beer-drinking lower middle class suburbanites and libertarian anarchist art students, while modern jazz was music played by working class semi-professional musicians from the East End or thereabouts to non-political aspirational spirits-drinking lower middle class baby boomers.

Those of us who are a mixture comprise an interesting sociological residue.

Oi! Who are you calling a "Sociological Residue"? I had that Max Weber in the back of my cab once...

BN.

Really nice program by the way. I always thought that Charles Fox sounded like a hip geography lecturer - if that's not a contradiction. Peter Clayton, more a hip accountant.

And it's interesting to realise the interplay between jazz and request. Nostalgia really enters the equation. Maybe no-one's nostalgic for Coltrane's Meditations.

Xcept me.

BN.