Pianist Donald Brown vs Rudy Van Gelder ...Yo Mama

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

"It was a really weird thing 'cause it was
recorded at Rudy Van Gelder's studio where
a lot of the Blue Note records were
recorded. It was probably the most famous
studio in jazz. But I heard so many horror
stories about recording there, how Rudy
wouldn't let you play the piano to warm
up. But I didn't believe it until I got there. I
went over and got on the electric piano and
I had my headphones on and I hear
someone saying "Donald!" And it scared me.
"Donald, would you please not play the
piano." And I thought, man, this cat's
tripping. He didn't want to take a chance
with the acoustic piano getting out of tune,
but this is electric. I found later from some
of the other people, like [guitarist] Kevin
Eubanks. He told me, "Man, don't feel bad.
I've been recording here for years, and he's
just an asshole." I'd heard bad stories about
how he was a control freak, runs the studio
like your mother with the living room.
She's got plastic on stuff and she doesn't
want to get it dirty. But it's probably the
most famous studio in jazz, so he feels like
if you come up here for his sound, you put
up with his crap."........Donald Brown.

I always make sure my piano is LOCKED before I let jazz musicians come around. And my Calvados

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

look out for Whiplash a movie about control freakery in jazz .... any movie that thinks Buddy Rich should be emulated has something not quite right in the head

[Serial_Apologist]

Promoters of a Keith Tippett/Stan Tracey gig at a certain music club were surprised to receive a letter from the premises' owners debarring them from ever renting it again. Apparently the jobsworth duty caretaker had reported damage to the two boudoir grands; in fact all that had happened was Keith's usual loose deployment of tin whistles, pebbles and wood blocks to the strings.

"Probably the first time their bloody piano had been played properly!" exclaimed a witness to the whole business. Mr Tippett was not at all happy.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Promoters of a Keith Tippett/Stan Tracey gig at a certain music club were surprised to receive a letter from the premises' owners debarring them from ever renting it again. Apparently the jobsworth duty caretaker had reported damage to the two boudoir grands; in fact all that had happened was Keith's usual loose deployment of tin whistles, pebbles and wood blocks to the strings.

"Probably the first time their bloody piano had been played properly!" exclaimed a witness to the whole business. Mr Tippett was not at all happy.

I remember when I had the Mingus band around for a late tea. Eric Dolphy ate all my best biscuits and Mingus shoved his sardine sarnis down into my grand piano. And nicked my Coronation tea pot. Never again.

BN.

Calum, there was a good take down of that film in the NYT or New Yorker. Louise Mench, the twitter Mole Wrench , thinks its "wooooooooooooooonerful!"

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

this one perhaps?

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/richard-brody/whiplash-getting-jazz-right-movies

[Ian Thumwood]

look out for Whiplash a movie about control freakery in jazz .... any movie that thinks Buddy Rich should be emulated has something not quite right in the head

Calum

I would expect that at least 75% of youngsters coming to play the drums even in 2014 will have largely been inspired by Buddy Rich. If you have no knowledge of the history of the drums in jazz and were born around 2000 I would very much doubt that you are going to have heard of Elvin Jones, Jo Jones, Max Roach or even Tony Williams. These musicians are pretty much historic and whilst I can find Rich to be a bore when playing in small groups, I think his playing with larger ensembles is beyond dispute. regardless of how you or the writer of the article feel, Buddy Rich still generates awe amongst aspiring drummers and his name will be familiar to youngsters who aspire to play rock.

Having been on innumerable workshops and master-classes, it is salutary to find out which musicians capture the imagination of teenage musicians. Buddy Rich is the obvious example for drummers and you will find that even more "square" drummers like Mark Guiliana or Steve Gadd have a huge following. I was quite amazed to attend a gig several years back where the audience at a Stanton Moore gig included a large proportion of drummers who knew Moore's work who'd come to an obscure pub near Southsea to hear him play. It was quite incredible to see how well-known he was amongst amateur drummers. You can say the same with bassists who are far more likely to cite Jaco Pastorious as an inspiration than Paul Chambers or Charlie Mingus who are probably both little known by any inspiring musician under the age of 18. Ditto players like Marcus Miller or Victor Wooten who will tick all the right boxes. These musicians have a profile beyond jazz where the level of technical prowess may have more clout than anything more profound.


I think that Rich was an a******e but a great musician - at least as far as big band jazz is concerned. He also led a successful big band from the late 60's until abut 1985 at a time when few other people were willing to take this risk. Therefore, I am inclined to be a bit more lenient with him. As far as the anecdote about Van Gelder, it's worth noting that he is 90 years old and, even assuming that the Donald Brown story comes from a few years back, I suppose he is entitled to be a bit grouchy. I'm sure that there are plenty of other musicians / people in jazz who are equally unpleasant. I've never encountered any jazz musician who was a "control freak" although stories abound about the likes of Benny Goodman, Lionel Hampton, Keith Jarrett, etc, etc. I think that jazz is generally seen as being a style of music that encourages the team spirit whilst the reality is that the members of a group need to play for each other. This is even more important with big bands. A music tutor I knew went on a master-class with Maria Schneider and she was extremely disciplined but the ends justify the means.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

peole who say the ends justify the means are often choosing the particular means as an end for their dysfunctional control needs and compulsions Ian; great masters and teachers are more noted for flexibility and humanity imho ... i am having this debate with No 1 sprog who loves the movie

ps please add Roy Haynes to any canonical list of unknown drummers ..... it has taken me nigh on 65 years to build my familiarity with jazz artists, as you get older Ian you will increasingly find that the young know nothing and have a low quality of ignorance [they don't know they don't know]

[Ian Thumwood]

Calum

If youngsters got in to Roy Haynes, there would be no need for them to listen to anyone else. He is an absolutely brilliant drummer and always adds value to whichever group he graces.

I agree totally with your comment about great teachers. However, Rich seems to me to be more of an influence and regardless of how you feel about the man or his music, no other drummer has been so influential for so long. To cite Rich as an influence in the film isn't as bizarre as you would imagine albeit I would have thought that someone as old as the student in the film would have been more savvy. Most drumming students of that age would be able to run a great long list of influences and , I am sure, would have checked out the likes of Guiliana. That said, I am equally sure that they would be aware of African drumming, Indian rhythms and maybe able to delve right back in to the origins of their instrument. A film about a Buddy Rich-obsessed student would be realistic for a 14/15 y.o. but no someone in their early 20's. If you are that obsessed with your instrument, you are likely to be aware of all kinds of music and not just jazz.The film seems to be a bit flawed, judging by the review.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

it is worth a watch; finely made and intense

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I only posted the Donald Brown piece because I found it unusually frank (and amusing). No offence to Mr Gelder who has done the music more than proud over the years. Although Johnny Griffin was saying the much same thing years ago....Gelder glaring at him because he stacked his beer bottles on the piano. As you do....

As for Buddy Rich's contemp influence...no real idea but do today's young (jazz and non jazz) drummers really admire that ego et bombast? I thought it was now all Steve Gadd, Billy Cobham etc. The new flash.

Or Sandy "Teenbeat" Nelson.


BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

yeah El Senor just riffing on the theme of control freaks ....

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

If you listen to those tapes on Youtube of Buddy Rich screaming abuse at members of his band you could combine a few points!

BN.


Mind you Hank Crawford was "fined" for wearing Chelsea boots on stage in the 60s with the Ray Charles band. James Brown used to spread his hand behind his back as a "$ five" fine for anyone who dared hit a bum note.

[Ian Thumwood]

If you listen to those tapes on Youtube of Buddy Rich screaming abuse at members of his band you could combine a few points!

BN.


.

Years ago I went to Wavendon for a jazz course and one of the classes was with a big band which was held by Don Rendell. He re-counted a story about one of his experiences after struggling to get the saxes from dragging the ensemble down. He explained that this was a common problem with big bands and then told a story about his time in Woody Herman's British big band which detailed how tough a task master Herman was including his use of industrial language to motivate the band. Anyone familiar with big band jazz will know that Herman was one of the nice guys!!

Rich's dysfunctional behaviour is celebrated but his role models were probably no less authoritarian although Bunny Berigan was probably rarely sober. Shaw has always come across as a humourless and demanding bandleader whereas Tommy Dorsey was similarly famous for his explosive temper - little remembered these days but celebrated at the time as being one half of a sibling rivalry more corrosive than the talentless, mono-browed Man City fans from twenty years ago. Small wonder that Rich turned out the way he did and probably not unique by a long chalk from that generation.

[Tenor Freak]

Calum

If youngsters got in to Roy Haynes, there would be no need for them to listen to anyone else. He is an absolutely brilliant drummer and always adds value to whichever group he graces.

According to Denys Baptiste, Roy Haynes is a top bloke as well as a legend behind teh traps. I'm not so sure that B. Rich is much of an influence these days - I knew a drummer whose hero was Art Blakey - a more likely role model methinks

[Tenor Freak]

My favourite Blakey track for obvious reasons (composer: W.Shorter)