Has jazz run its course?

[charles t]

A salute to Rcartes for propelling posters to the ramparts somewhat akin to that Washington Post note of discord, here in the States.

A New York mainstream musician likened free jazz to: "...the sound of furniture being thrown down the stairway."

I must admit while viewing Calum's recent Youtub'r of Evan Parker and John Escreet (with Tyshawn Sorey & John Hebert)
I kept being hopeful that SOMEHOW they would breakout from their horizontal meanderings and something akin to Rcarte's pleadings would emerge.

Silly me.

[Richard Barrett]

A New York mainstream musician likened free jazz to: "...the sound of furniture being thrown down the stairway."

And the painter John Ruskin wrote "Beethoven always sounds to me like the upsetting of bags of nails, with here and there a dropped hammer." You can always find some silly description of music you don't like, so what? I guess the answer is to stop wishing for something that isn't there and try to hear and appreciate what is.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i am really into Digital Primitives at the minute, found an album on my iTunes whislt posting about this place and then discovered the free music archive link again ... treasure and rubbish trove all in one place

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Talking of Evan and Free Jazz I was reading an interview with the guitarist Kevin Rowe. Rowe said in the 60s it was totally against his "principles" to ever tune his guitar so it became progressively de-tuned everytime it came out the case. Mike Westbrook fired him for sticking soup ads on the charts and "playing" those.

He went on to become a staunch Maoist which explains a lot.

BN.

[Serial_Apologist]

Monk's laconic response to the (dumb) interview question, "Where is jazz going?", was, "To hell in a handcart? Who knows? Jazz goes where it wants to go".

My take...torrents of hate= late Trane etc = great.

BN.

Agree with Calum, the old is the new new.

The Franco-American composer Edgard Varese once said, "Contrary to popular opinion, the artist is not ahead of his [sic] time; most people are far behind theirs".

He was right up until the time when capitalism overtook us all to be proclaimed the only game in town by its beneficiaries and ad-mirers; even as we agreed with Elliott Carter that the growing complexity of modern music more authentically reflected life today we were forced to question our equation of artistic and musical with social and political progress, or what the sources are today and where to be found. The momentum for change has to some extent to come outwith the art, be it as a warning, (cf BA Zimmermann), because the greatest aesthetic leap imv took place in the middle to late 1960s when the avant-gardes of classical, jazz and rock briefly and unevenly converged and sired manifestations appealing across all classes but most important as I recall to many newly radicalised working class youth.

While civilisation stalls or reverses artistic and musical advance will remain in a world of its own. It is holding the fort and we should support it.

[Richard Barrett]

I was reading an interview with the guitarist Kevin Rowe

Keith

He went on to become a staunch Maoist which explains a lot.

What for example?

[MrGongGong]

Talking of Evan and Free Jazz I was reading an interview with the guitarist Kevin Rowe. Rowe said in the 60s it was totally against his "principles" to ever tune his guitar so it became progressively de-tuned everytime it came out the case. Mike Westbrook fired him for sticking soup ads on the charts and "playing" those.

He went on to become a staunch Maoist which explains a lot.

BN.

I also think you mean Keith
and i'm also puzzled about what it explains ?

Dangerous Maoist music ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKwSagendWA&spfreload=10%20Message%3A%20JSON%20Parse%20error%3A%20Unexpected%20EOF%20(url%3A%20https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbKwSagendWA)

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I think for really really dangerous Maoist music you need to turn to Cornelius Cardrew's "Workers Song". Fkg Hilarious. Eat your heart out Wolfy. Rowe was close to him and the party. After China, Albania!

BN.

[Richard Barrett]

Rowe was close to him and the party.

Yes we all know that, but, er, what does it "explain" about his playing? A lot, according to you. So?

[Rcartes]

I also think you mean Keith
and i'm also puzzled about what it explains ?

Dangerous Maoist music ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKwS...3DbKwSagendWA)

This reminded me about the remark attributed to Buddy Rich: a friend went to visit him when he was near death, and asked if there was anything still bothering him. "Country music," replied Buddy...

[Rcartes]

I think for really really dangerous Maoist music you need to turn to Cornelius Cardrew's "Workers Song". Fkg Hilarious. Eat your heart out Wolfy. Rowe was close to him and the party. After China, Albania!

BN.

You mean this? Doesn't sound terribly dangerous to me...

[Rcartes]

Talking of Evan and Free Jazz I was reading an interview with the guitarist Kevin Rowe. Rowe said in the 60s it was totally against his "principles" to ever tune his guitar so it became progressively de-tuned everytime it came out the case. Mike Westbrook fired him for sticking soup ads on the charts and "playing" those.

He went on to become a staunch Maoist which explains a lot.

BN.

On the other hand, I heard on R3 today a reference to a young Chinese musician who was almost thrown out of the music academy because preferred playing a "hooligan instrument." They meant the guitar: I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with the Chinese authorities...

[Rcartes]

If I listen to their work I can certainly hear it. In what ways? Well there's expanding the range of saxophone technique to begin with, particularly in Evan's case, I think that's fairly clear. Then expansion of the sonic range and complexity of an improvising ensemble, as in Evan's electroacoustic work, which also proposes new ways of structuring the music. On the other hand, new ways of structuring the music have been central to Braxton for many years and continue to be, as for example in 9 Compositions (Iridium) 2006 which take the whole tradition (and contemporary composition too) and integrate all of this together into something not just new but with enormous potential for future evolution in my opinion. Those are a few anyway.

Sadly, all I hear (especially from Evan Parker) is noise. And I really don't see that Braxton has extended jazz by any great degree: no step change comparable to, for example, the change form two beat to all four with the move to swing, but just marginal change. And what's the point if it produces stuff that only a tiny minority of people can listen to? I feel the same about, say, Brian Fernyhough; at least Arvo Pärt, for example, produces music it's good to listen to.

[Ian Thumwood]

Sadly, all I hear (especially from Evan Parker) is noise. And I really don't see that Braxton has extended jazz by any great degree: no step change comparable to, for example, the change form two beat to all four with the move to swing, but just marginal change. And what's the point if it produces stuff that only a tiny minority of people can listen to? I feel the same about, say, Brian Fernyhough; at least Arvo Pärt, for example, produces music it's good to listen to.

Of all the Free improvisers, Parker is one of the few who I find compelling. It is risky music as the chances of "success" are so slim and elusive. I wouldn't argue against it as I think free improvisation is now as much as a tool for the soloist as playing changes , modes , tone rows or using the melody as a basis for the journey. Elements of "free jazz" are now thoroughly engrained in jazz and almost necessary in order to make the experience of listening to jazz relevant.

I am intrigued by Richard's opinions and have often been prompted to respond likewise whenever similar views are aired on this site. The ideas proposed by Braxton, etc don't seem radical anymore. I think they are often esoteric and almost difficult by definition yet much of this stuff was "new" nearly fifty years ago. This isn't radical anymore. It's a bit like arguing that Braxton playing Scot Joplin would be contemporary in the 1960's - the music has moved on and jazz seems to be exploring well beyond these kinds of notions. To me, Evan Parker is pretty mainstream these days. This stuff has certainly lost it's ability to shock and , I would suggest, become far more accepted and embraced by a wider jazz community.

The interesting thing about jazz today is that it is far more diverse than it has ever been. There is no one movement or style that dominates and I don't really think that improvisation is outstripping writing for creativity in the way that it has done in the past when composers were a novelty or something to be singled out. These days, jazz musicians are borrowing from all sorts of cultures whether it is commercial, academic or even indigenous. The most interesting developments in jazz are those where musicians are thinking about composition and extending the contexts for the music. There's plenty of brilliant and fascinating styles of jazz out there and more than possibly be appreciated or acknowledged. This year, I have discovered people like Steve Owen and Jason Roebke who I had never heard before but which, in both instances, have astounded me with their ability , in differing styles, to extent the tradition. I would recommend that a look at the offerings on labels like Delmark or Cuneiform offer some refreshing perspectives on jazz. Delmark has been a revelation as far as I have been concerned as their records are addictive and constantly surprise - both in their respect of the jazz heritage and the honesty of the musicians they sign. The likes of Nicole Mitchell, Ari brown, Jason Roebke, Jason Adasiewizc , Josh Berman, Jeb Bishop, Pail Giallorenzo have been a breath of fresh air. I think I'll have to request a Jason Roebke track on JRR to wake you cats up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rcartes]

Of all the Free improvisers, Parker is one of the few who I find compelling. It is risky music as the chances of "success" are so slim and elusive. I wouldn't argue against it as I think free improvisation is now as much as a tool for the soloist as playing changes , modes , tone rows or using the melody as a basis for the journey. Elements of "free jazz" are now thoroughly engrained in jazz and almost necessary in order to make the experience of listening to jazz relevant.

I am intrigued by Richard's opinions and have often been prompted to respond likewise whenever similar views are aired on this site. The ideas proposed by Braxton, etc don't seem radical anymore. I think they are often esoteric and almost difficult by definition yet much of this stuff was "new" nearly fifty years ago. This isn't radical anymore. It's a bit like arguing that Braxton playing Scot Joplin would be contemporary in the 1960's - the music has moved on and jazz seems to be exploring well beyond these kinds of notions. To me, Evan Parker is pretty mainstream these days. This stuff has certainly lost it's ability to shock and , I would suggest, become far more accepted and embraced by a wider jazz community.

The interesting thing about jazz today is that it is far more diverse than it has ever been. There is no one movement or style that dominates and I don't really think that improvisation is outstripping writing for creativity in the way that it has done in the past when composers were a novelty or something to be singled out. These days, jazz musicians are borrowing from all sorts of cultures whether it is commercial, academic or even indigenous. The most interesting developments in jazz are those where musicians are thinking about composition and extending the contexts for the music. There's plenty of brilliant and fascinating styles of jazz out there and more than possibly be appreciated or acknowledged. This year, I have discovered people like Steve Owen and Jason Roebke who I had never heard before but which, in both instances, have astounded me with their ability , in differing styles, to extent the tradition. I would recommend that a look at the offerings on labels like Delmark or Cuneiform offer some refreshing perspectives on jazz. Delmark has been a revelation as far as I have been concerned as their records are addictive and constantly surprise - both in their respect of the jazz heritage and the honesty of the musicians they sign. The likes of Nicole Mitchell, Ari brown, Jason Roebke, Jason Adasiewizc , Josh Berman, Jeb Bishop, Pail Giallorenzo have been a breath of fresh air. I think I'll have to request a Jason Roebke track on JRR to wake you cats up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No need, Ian, we can all sample Jason Roebke here:

To which I can only say that, where bass playing is concerned, I much prefer Pops Foster, and listening to this stuff (which, for the full comedic effect, really does need the video so it wouldn't really work on JRR - but thanks for the suggestion of Roebke, which really brightened my evening), I rather think you've made my point for me. Still, chacun a son bucket of porridge, eh?