What's the point of concert recreations?

[Rcartes]

Tribute bands are one thing and it's easy to see their point: one of the best I've ever heard is Pete Long's Gillespiana (Pete makes rather a speciality of this kind of thing). The Gillespiana performances were (they seem to have ended, because I haven't seen notice of one for ages) terrific because they gave you a feeling of what it must have been like to hear in person the sheer raw power of the 1940s' Gillespie bands, and great credit to Long and his musicians for that.

But increasingly, it seems we're getting not just tribute bands but tribute concerts: the Goodman Carnegie Hall concerts, for example, and I for one are rather baffled by this: what on earth is the point? The high point of those concerts was the solos, and their effect can't be recreated. Has anyone been to any of these, and are they worth attending?

PS: Incidentally, another band recreation I'd be interested to witness would be Woody Herman's First Herd: exciting arrangements (the 24 bars of unison by the six trumpet section on Caldonia, for example, is staggering) and what for me is the greatest rhythm section ever: Ralph Burns, Billy Bauer, Chubby Jackson and Davey Tough (did any section swing more than that?). But it wouldn't be easy to reproduce that!

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

..er no and i think not, not even sure about tribute bands to be honest ....

and welcome back Rcartes

[Dave2002]

Jazz may be problematic, perhaps because of the large element of improvisation, and also the personal characteristics of the players being emulated/celebrated.

However, for classical music enthusiasts there are recreated events - such as concerts of the "first performance of Beethoven's 5th", and Paul McCreesh has recreated several church events going back hundreds of years. The worth of these efforts presumably can be judged by whether sufficient numbers of people find these interesting, or gain insights from experiencing them, and it is of course possible that even just one person might gain pleasure and insight from such, even if there is not general agreement.

In the end, what is the point or worth of anything?

http://www.signumrecords.com/catalogue/gabrieli-consort-aand-players/a-new-venetian-coronation,-1595/sigcd287.html

[Rcartes]

Jazz may be problematic, perhaps because of the large element of improvisation, and also the personal characteristics of the players being emulated/celebrated.

However, for classical music enthusiasts there are recreated events - such as concerts of the "first performance of Beethoven's 5th", and Paul McCreesh has recreated several church events going back hundreds of years. The worth of these efforts presumably can be judged by whether sufficient numbers of people find these interesting, or gain insights from experiencing them, and it is of course possible that even just one person might gain pleasure and insight from such, even if there is not general agreement.

In the end, what is the point or worth of anything?

http://www.signumrecords.com/catalog.../sigcd287.html

Take your point about jazz in particular, that for me is the real problem: how could anyone recreate the effect of Lester Young's contributions to the Goodman Carnegie Hall concerts, for example? And the Gillespiana performances are a bit different in that their interest lies more in the arrangements (transcribed with infinite care and excellent effect by someone in the Midlands, I remember Pete Long saying) than the solos. And thank you for the link to the McCreesh disc: Philip Pickett's New London Consort used to do similar things.

Oh, and thank you also for the welcome back, Calum: I keep meaning to come here more often but other, less important things keep intervening.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Pickett's London Consort made one of my most favourite recordings of the Brandenburg Concertos ..

[Rcartes]

Pickett's London Consort made one of my most favourite recordings of the Brandenburg Concertos ..

That's funny, I was thinking of including a reference to that set: definitely one of my favourites, as is their version of Monteverdi's Vespers.

[Alyn_Shipton]

I'm not entirely convinced about the concert recreation - it's always been tough to review them, because you're partly reviewing the original event and partly the performance. The classical events mentioned above aren't quite the same as there's no recorded evidence to compare to. I used to enjoy Denys Darlow's Bach cantatas in the context of vespers at St George Hanover Square, as they gave a real sense of how the works were conceived.
I am convinced about the virtue of playing music (or at least trying to play it) from across the jazz repertoire. I learned a lot about King Oliver by playing in US pianist Butch Thompson's Oliver Centennial Band, back in the 1980s, and I'm currently learning a lot about Buck Clayton's music by playing new arrangements of the music he bequeathed to me. The Jelly Roll Morton Discovering Music edition from the 2010 LJF (still available online) was a good opportunity to get to know his band repertoire - still available (in edited form) online

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gqqgl

And this year at the London Jazz Festival my band is trying the experiment of tackling the Ellington small group repertoire, but again not in exact transcriptions, but a loose approximation of the original.

http://www.efglondonjazzfestival.org.uk/events/info/buck-clayton-legacy-band1

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

any chance of that recital appearing on the wireless Alyn?

[Alyn_Shipton]

Sadly not, it seems that two JLUs in 3 years is about the limit! Unless you're a Radio 3 Young Generation Artist, present or past that is!

[Ian Thumwood]

There is precious little point in recreating a concert and I agree with this sentiment but I heard a recreation of the Basie / Ellington collaboration several years ago which was mesmerising because the live performance gave you the added visual perception of what was happening in the music. I totally agree with Alyn's argument but with the caveat that this needs to be centred around writing / arrangement in order for it to work. The latest MOPDTK disc is a note-for note transcription of "Kind of Blue" which is supposed to be ironic but just comes across as pointless.

I would also add that the issue of unrecorded repertoire is amazingly interesting and has the potential to redefine perceptions of past bands. I know that the likes of Bob Wilbur has worked with a big band from Toulouse to record previously unfamiliar Fletcher Henderson charts written for Goodman. The LCJO have also performed really obscure charts that Tadd Dameron wrote for Harland Leonard in the 1930's (probably around the same time Bird made his professional debut with this band?) and this is absolutely fascinating. Given the lengthy history of jazz, there must be a significant proportion of written jazz that hasn't been performed since the 20's / 30's / 40's / 50's / 60's that is ripe for rediscovery. From a historical point of view, I personally would like to hear this albeit it would be more interesting hearing a lost chart by Henderson, Dameron, Redman, Morton, Evans , etc, etc than a transcription of a familiar Blue Note record.

I would be very interested if Alyn could shed some light on where all the old arrangements go after the demise of the bands. Are the books of bands like Andy Kirk, Jesse Stone, Lucky Millinder, etc lost to history or remain the property of descendants. Does the Lincoln Centre remain the depository of the charts from Bennie Moten's band? I know that people like Ketih Nichols and Steve Bernstein have transcribed early material but it would be brilliant if the books of these old band could be explored to see if the historical perceptions were accurate or indeed just how representative the recordings of certins bands were of their music. Millinder's band remains a real puzzle for me as there are a handful of truly sensational records which are alleged to be representative whereas the bulk of this band's recorded output in pretty disposable if you discount the Sister Rosetta and Wyonnie Harris stuff.

I quite admire Schuller's approach and interest on earlier repertoire even if I can't always agree with his conclusions. Surely these is a similar exercise to be done with the unrecorded material which could be contrasted with that which as recorded for posterity.

[Alyn_Shipton]

Ian
The Basie book is with the (just about) still current Basie band. I looked through charts etc with Grover Mitchell 14 years ago when I did the Jazz file on Basie.
The Ellington book is at the Smithsonian.
The Calloway book is with Cab's grandson Christopher Calloway Brooks.
The Lunceford book used to be in Frank Driggs's apartment along with the band uniforms. No idea what happened to that lot when he died!
Other swing orchestras are more problematic. I have no answers to the Millinder conundrum.
When you get to later bands, it gets a bit easier. Slide Hampton had the Dizzy Book for the alumni all stars. Benny Carter distributed charts hither and yon.
Gerald Wilson had all his charts - I guess his son Anthony has them now.
I knew both Andy Kirk and Jesse Stone, but they no longer had their music. Some examples may be in the Smithsonian...

[Ian Thumwood]

Alyn

Thanks very much for your input.

When I was a teenager I went to Edinburgh Festival with some friends and I caught Jay McShann in a gig with Buddy Tate. I was fortunate to chat to him afterwards and he was a real character. I remember him saying that all the charts for his band were stolen. Seems incredible that so much music might have been lost .