JRR 11 Oct 14

**Jazzrook** · 10-10-14, 09:22

Many thanks, Alyn. Looking forward to hearing something from Mike Westbrook's 'Mama Chicago'. I remember seeing a stunning film of this on BBC TV many years ago. Think I have an old VHS tape of it somewhere.

**aka Calum Da Jazbo** · 10-10-14, 13:57

cheers Alyn; looking forward to the Gerald Wilson tracks and the Crusaders ...

**Serial_Apologist** · 10-10-14, 13:59

Originally posted by Jazzrook View Post

Many thanks, Alyn. Looking forward to hearing something from Mike Westbrook's 'Mama Chicago'. I remember seeing a stunning film of this on BBC TV many years ago. Think I have an old VHS tape of it somewhere.

Me too! Where are they now? Of that line-up, I haven't checked, but apart from the Westbroooks, Malcolm Griffiths rarely plays at all any more, more's the pity; Chris Hunter became part of the British Jazz Brain Drain by b*ggering off to America; Mike Page died; Phil Minton, though participating in occasional revivals of the Westbrook Blake/Glad Day, is more-or-less nowadays exclusively associated with free improv, having put down his trumpet in favour of a startling and often unsettling array of vocal devices all his own, a real one-off; and Dave Barry still appears on bandstands, especially around S London, sometimes leading line-ups of his own.

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 10-10-14, 14:41

Looks a very good show. As well as those singled out above....Lem Winchester, the vibs playing cop who shot himself/was shot? Very rarely featured on JRR? Good "Bagsy" player I recall

BN

**Ian Thumwood** · 11-10-14, 16:18

"Blues for Yna Yna" - Is there a big band track which has such an agreeable groove at this ? I love the sax riff and the punctuations from the brass when Holmes is soloing. A brilliant record.

As for the Chet Baker tune, difficult not to snigger whenever you hear the lyrics about "my partner always trumps." My 4 y.o. nephew is always being told off for doing that!

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 11-10-14, 16:57

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

"Blues for Yna Yna" - Is there a big band track which has such an agreeable groove at this ? I love the sax riff and the punctuations from the brass when Holmes is soloing. A brilliant record.

As for the Chet Baker tune, difficult not to snigger whenever you hear the lyrics about "my partner always trumps." My 4 y.o. nephew is always being told off for doing that!

Wonderful piece, and the one before. I always think Yna Yna, written for his cat?, would have made a great US TV cop series theme. Very very catchy.

Thought the the Lem Winchester track was a bad call. There is some lovely other stuff out there with Frank Wess, almost like the Frank Wess/Lucky Thompson/Milt Jackson Savoy sides.

BN.

**Ian Thumwood** · 11-10-14, 17:24

I liked the Lem Winchester track but it was far more conservative than I had anticipated. The band sounded a little ouf of time on the closing break, though.

I was a good programme tonight even if the kid Ory track sounded a bit frenetic in contrast to some of his other records. The stand out tracks were Lionel Ferbos (never heard of him but loved the vintage feel of this band) and the Joe sample number. Shame that it had to be announced that the latter was played by the Jazz Crusaders as the genuine jazz credentials of that record would have fooled many. Surprisingly good.

It was funny to hear the comment about Chet Baker's singing and it did put me in mind of so many other descriptions which almost have an alternative meaning. I.e.:-

Idiosyncratic singer - someone whose pitch is poor

Jazz with rock attitude ~ Loud and usually consisting of a one chord vamp

Cutting edge - a jazz musician who is unlikely to be around in five years time

Tireless improviser - someone who plays too many choruses and it reluctant to stop

Overlooked talent - someone whose records are no longer available on Amazon, etc, etc

**Quarky** · 12-10-14, 10:47

A mixed bag - as JRR always is. But a spotlight on Jazz singers, who I feel can display the best and the worst in Jazz. As regards Chet Baker, I have always found a strong narcissistic element in his singing. This seems a common fault, particularly in young male Jazz singers. Usually have a strong respect for the musicianship of Mike and Kate Westbrook, but I found Kate's breathing techniques in the lower register made her sound like an old man. I'll stick with Lelah Hathaway!

Highlight for me were two comments from the presenters - one from Alyn about Gerald Wilson and Dizzy, incorporating the ideas of Bebop into Big Band Jazz: Artist Gerald Wilson Title Dissonance In Blues

The other from Geoffrey Smith. Bird apparently worked three months washing dishes just to listen to Art Tatum - the cradle of bebop, I think GS said. That's it ! Kansas City blues + phenomenal technique of Art Tatum, transposed to Alto Sax = Bird's phenomenal flights of improvisation.

Going back to Ian's comments on Gil Evans, I have always felt Gil's extremely well groomed techniques were not "the way to go". The lesson I take from the music of the 30's, 40's and the development of bebop, is the rawness of the original bebop recordings - a new form of music very firmly rooted in the good earth.

**DracoM** · 12-10-14, 10:50

Loved the Joe Sample pieces. Ashamed to admit, not a name I knew.

**Ian Thumwood** · 12-10-14, 11:13

Gerald Wilson should be better known. I've been playing one of his later discs this morning and you would have to say that the music has everything you need from big band jazz. The playing swings, there is a strong reliance on the blues, the writing is quite dense (as Alyn noted) with some interesting harmonic nuances and there is plenty of room for the soloists too.

I've heard Kate Westbrook perform live (they played some cabaret inspired bg band stuff at Southampton many years ago) but it is difficult to think of her as a jazz singer. She is "in" jazz but "not" jazz, I would think. However, she has been instrumental in the many highly original projects that her husband has put together. I would never have considered Mike Westbrook as being "avant garde" or "way out", but there is no one else like him and his approach if one of the best examples of European jazz offering an alternative to the American model that genuinely works. He is an quintessentially English as Django's music is French.

As far as Chet Baker is concerned, he's a bit like someone singing in the shower. Much preferred the Lalah Hathaway contribution - there is a great clip of her on Youtube with Snarky Puppy where she manages to sing two notes at the same time. Staggering!

Tatum as an influence on Bird ? Maybe more of an inspiration as the lines don't really sound alike when they improvise. Always thought that Tatum had bags of technique but maybe can be guilty of playing "variations" as opposed to a genuine improvised line. Tatum fascinates and infuriates at the same time - maybe only Cecil Taylor can quite match this ability of amaze and sometimes bore when it comes to jazz piano. For me, Tatum is a bit of a precursor to Oscar Peterson who represents a point where the technique is more striking than what he has to say on his instrument.

**Serial_Apologist** · 12-10-14, 18:57

Originally posted by Oddball View Post

Usually have a strong respect for the musicianship of Mike and Kate Westbrook, but I found Kate's breathing techniques in the lower register made her sound like an old man.

I'd better double check this, but I think you might be referring to Phil Minton there, Oddball!

The Barbara Thompson track seemed rather abruptly terminated - again I need to check, having that CD, because the 4 minutes 7 seconds timing mentioned is on the sleeve.

**MarkG** · 12-10-14, 19:01

To me it sounded more like Phil Minton on the Westbrook track.

**Quarky** · 12-10-14, 19:57

Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

I'd better double check this, but I think you might be referring to Phil Minton there, Oddball!

.

Ooops -sorry about that!

Unless I am doubly mistaken, a duet between Kate and Phil. Excuses, but Alyn mentioned only Kate.

But in the end, just a cabaret piece?

**Alyn_Shipton** · 12-10-14, 20:51

Oddball You are perceptive indeed. I inadvertently credited the vocal on the Westbrook track to Kate. Mike has let me know that I got it wrong, and on this track it was Phil Minton (singing in a register I have not heard him reach for some time...)

JRR 11 Oct 14

JRR 11 Oct 14

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