JRR20 Sep 2014

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Perhaps a sign of what could have been was "Free for All" where Blakey seems determined to demonstrate that whatever Elvin can do, I can equal. Shorter's influence? As we have said before an amazing record and one of the most violent on Bluenote. Blakey's drumming is far far looser here.

I saw him in the early 60s and he was great. Immense power and swing. The problem after that was that he almost became a prisoner of his own style and image. And indeed, what his audience expected and demanded. Happens a lot!

I couldn't imagine him responding to Cecil Taylor or Braxton in the way that Max did. Or indeed Louis Hayes with McCoy Tyner. One of my fav ever gigs.

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Roy Haynes

[Serial_Apologist]

SA

Blakey's old-style is pretty apparent on the stuff he produced in the 1980's. Some great talent passed through these bands but they are never revered in quite the same fashion as the line ups of the 50'sand 60's. I think this is largely because anyone and everyone seemed to pass through this group - even Keith Jarrett had a brief stint. The "classic" Blakey sides seemed to be part of what jazz was about at the time and he would even have seemed quite relevant when all the "Neo-bop" stuff was fashionable in the 1980's. However, even as a teenager getting in to jazz, I could recognise that drumming was changing with player's like DeJohnette and Stewart seeming to give the soloists a less intrusive groove to express themselves over. With Blakey, it seemed almost competitive. I don't think Blakey was quite as ahead of the game as people might have thought at the time. He was one of the few greats leading a band and perhaps offered an alternative to Miles' descent in to fusion. There was so much happening in jazz by the mid-80's that it was inevitable that Blakey's drummer sounded like something with it's roots back 30-40 years back in the past. The music changed so quickly that this was bound to happen but, what is interesting, is that how quickly jazz seemed to establish an equilibrium. Jazz doesn't seem quite so modish or factional now as it did 30 years ago and the more "traditionalist" of players who've picked up the baton from the 1960's Avant garde seem more typical. (Thinking of the likes of William Parker, Hamid Drake, Oliver Lake, the current Chicago crew, Nicole Mitchell, Dave Douglas, etc, etc.) Jazz isn't quite so gimmicky as it was in the 1980's and players like Dorham , Hill, Dolphy, etc would all easily fit in to the current scene today. Blakey would probably seem anachronistic in 2014.

Good points, Ian. I think when we're on about time drummers we are mostly in agreement!

[Serial_Apologist]

Perhaps a sign of what could have been was "Free for All" where Blakey seems determined to demonstrate that whatever Elvin can do, I can equal. Shorter's influence? As we have said before an amazing record and one of the most violent on Bluenote. Blakey's drumming is far far looser here.

I saw him in the early 60s and he was great. Immense power and swing. The problem after that was that he almost became a prisoner of his own style and image. And indeed, what his audience expected and demanded. Happens a lot!

I couldn't imagine him responding to Cecil Taylor or Braxton in the way that Max did. Or indeed Louis Hayes with McCoy Tyner. One of my fav ever gigs.

BN.

Stupid of me to forget "Free for All". That said, a lot of players from the 1960s, irrespective of instrument, did subsequently turn their backs on improvising sans pulse - some sooner than others. A visit to John Marshall's place many years ago prompted me to ask him about this very subject, given that at the far end of his studio was a kit under covers which turned out to have been Rashied Ali's drums on those late Coltrane recordings*. John said he was as interested in the freer areas as the more Fusioney type of drumming he thought himself better known for (in Nucleus, Soft Machine etc), and he told me that one of the main points of moving "beyond time" was setting up situations in which musicians were not preconditioned to think in terms of structures, and obligatory ways of waymarking them so as to let everybody know where everybody was and avoid missing or fouling up deadlines. He pointed out that this required an extra degree of listening on everybody's part, but when I mentioned Jack Bruce's comment about Ginger Baker's deliberate undermining of this principle in Cream, out of malice towards himself and Clapton, John roared with laughter for quite some time, ending up saying, "Yes, there's a lot of truth about that!"

*They're played by John on side 2 of "Five", the Soft Machine LP with the black cover - this being the only time John had had them on a recording.

Oh, and BTW I asked if I could touch them. John Marshall said yes!

[elmo]

Bluesnik

I like Blakey but in the 1980's he was seen as a kind of jazz Godfather and every trumpeter after Wynton seemed to be heralded even before they had effectively created a sympathetic body of work. Several years ago Radio 3 played an old Blakey gig from the 1980s and it seemed to have aged tremendously. Every time I hear Blakey, I hear Chick Webb. Don't get me wrong, I love both drummers and can admire the powerhouse approach of their playing . However, it would have been interesting to see how Webb would have coped in to the 1940's as a younger generation of drummers emerged with new ideas and made him sound as antiquated as Jelly Roll Morton who he notoriously ridiculed. The same goes for Blakey who sounded from another era in comparison with the likes of DeJohnette, Peter Erskine or Bill Stewart who were around at the same time.

Ian

I have to say I am a big fan of Art and I obviously hear Blakey differently from you - I saw Blakey in the early eighties with Wynton Marsalis and Billy Pierce and it seemed to me that sounded far more modern than any of his front line they sounded very tame in comparison to the drive,swing and fire generated by Art.

As Bluesnik said he could also be a master of dynamics, he certainly created a wonderful drive at low volume at the gig I attended

As for playing in more advanced settings the bands with Billy Harper and Slide Hampton / Carter Jefferson were pushing the Hard Bop boundaries and Art certainly had no problem in keeping up with them.

elmo

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Ian

I have to say I am a big fan of Art and I obviously hear Blakey differently from you - I saw Blakey in the early eighties with Wynton Marsalis and Billy Pierce and it seemed to me that sounded far more modern than any of his front line they sounded very tame in comparison to the drive,swing and fire generated by Art.

As Bluesnik said he could also be a master of dynamics, he certainly created a wonderful drive at low volume at the gig I attended

As for playing in more advanced settings the bands with Billy Harper and Slide Hampton / Carter Jefferson were pushing the Hard Bop boundaries and Art certainly had no problem in keeping up with them.

elmo

It's true I think that we demand far too much. We praise people for developing an individual style and then complain when they adhere to it. Revolt into style?

BN.