JRR20 Sep 2014

**aka Calum Da Jazbo** · 20-09-14, 11:32

Cheers Alyn

Mr Pysz is a new name to me

and Bluesnix posted on the round up:

I have Kenny Dorham playing "Yesterdays" with the Messengers at the Bohemia in 55 going out on today's JRR. Many thanks Alyn.

Kenny is stunning in Cliffordesque feature mode but ALL Kenny. Such a wonderful and lyrical player. And dig Horace's comp and prompts.

BN.

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 20-09-14, 12:30

Originally posted by aka Calum Da Jazbo View Post

Cheers Alyn

Mr Pysz is a new name to me

and Bluesnix posted on the round up:

Thanks Calun. Not sure if Alyn will leave Art's and Kenny's spoken intro in but its of great charm and sets the piece up. Surprised me how Kenny's voice was still so "Texan" even in the 70s.

BN.

BN.

**Ian Thumwood** · 21-09-14, 20:06

The Kenny Dorham track was brilliant. The style seemed to owe a bit to Miles but very much ploughed it's own path. He seemed pretty unique in the mid 1950's let alone his more mature work in the 1960's. I can appreciate how Dorham has been overlooked but careful attention marks him out as a fascinating player and someone who perhaps deserves the kind of reputation associated with Woody Shaw for example. I much prefer ths approach of Dorham to the prevalent brash approach that was popular in the 1950's whether this appertains to Clifford Brown, Donald Byrd or maybe even Fats Navarro. Dorham sounds like a more cautious and thorough improviser and , as I said last week, his approach is the antithesis of much of the trumpet tradition. That track was a very good call.

**Serial_Apologist** · 21-09-14, 22:10

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

The Kenny Dorham track was brilliant. The style seemed to owe a bit to Miles but very much ploughed it's own path. He seemed pretty unique in the mid 1950's let alone his more mature work in the 1960's. I can appreciate how Dorham has been overlooked but careful attention marks him out as a fascinating player and someone who perhaps deserves the kind of reputation associated with Woody Shaw for example. I much prefer ths approach of Dorham to the prevalent brash approach that was popular in the 1950's whether this appertains to Clifford Brown, Donald Byrd or maybe even Fats Navarro. Dorham sounds like a more cautious and thorough improviser and , as I said last week, his approach is the antithesis of much of the trumpet tradition. That track was a very good call.

Brash? Clifford Brown? Donald Byrd?? Fats??? Now, if you'd said Dizzy Gillespie, that I could just about understand. For "brash" I'd name Harry James or Roy Eldridge.

**Ian Thumwood** · 22-09-14, 05:36

SA

Players like Eldridge and Gillespie are more appealing to me because their tone is not as bright as the likes of Brown and Byrd. Their tone has a burr to it which sounds totally appropriate to jazz . I would also have to say that Gillespie is a much more interesting player from a rhythmic point of view than Brown or Byrd and probably used dynamics on his horn to greater effect than any other trumpeter in the historic of jazz. I like it more when trumpets don't sound quite so pure or use a number of effects. I don't think this is necessarily something associated with vintage jazz as you find it in players like Lester Bowie or the criminally under-rated Malachi Thompson. Dorham is yet another player who experiments in the timbre of his instrument - more me, I think this is an essential ingredient of jazz trumpet and maybe jazz lost something when the likes of Clifford Brown, Donald Byrd or even Lee Morgan became more influential. I do like Lee Morgan even if Brown and Byrd leave me a bit cold albeit I think the tendency is worse with someone like Terence Blanchard, who, great composer as he is, I find very difficult to listen to. As for Harry James, he only intermittently player jazz in the late 1930's and most of his work is hugely unappealing to my ears. Shame on you for mentioning his name in conjunction with Roy Eldridge whose best work is absolutely sensational !!

I think that Dorham is a player who could have quite easily have settled in to the current , contemporary idiom. A player born ahead of his time?

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 22-09-14, 06:55

If you listen to early Donald Byrd with the Messengers around 1956 (the Columbia album) there is a lot of Dorham influence in his playing. Not so surprising as he took over from Kenny. Byrd is a player who can be effective on one session and then bore for America the next. Depends on the company and the mood.

In the liner notes to Booker Little's very fine Qrt album with Scott Lafaro, Booker sounds off about how good Kenny Dorham is and his influence on him, more so than Miles. Woody said the same as did then now late Kenny Wheeler.

Dorham had subtle influence rather than overt and as Ian says showed another approach was possible. And his stye constantly evolved....from the long flowing lines of the early/mid 50s with Rollins ("Moving Out") right through to the more oblique and shorter phrases he used with Joe Henderson in that context. He was really aware of what was happening and changing around him

Anyway, A wonderful musician. And a match for Blakey! In a taped interview I've got Art says, "Kenny was so great but he would always rebel at the wrong moment!" Always like that use of "rebel" from Herr Blakey.

BN.

**Serial_Apologist** · 22-09-14, 11:31

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

SA

Players like Eldridge and Gillespie are more appealing to me because their tone is not as bright as the likes of Brown and Byrd. Their tone has a burr to it which sounds totally appropriate to jazz . I would also have to say that Gillespie is a much more interesting player from a rhythmic point of view than Brown or Byrd and probably used dynamics on his horn to greater effect than any other trumpeter in the historic of jazz. I like it more when trumpets don't sound quite so pure or use a number of effects. I don't think this is necessarily something associated with vintage jazz as you find it in players like Lester Bowie or the criminally under-rated Malachi Thompson. Dorham is yet another player who experiments in the timbre of his instrument - more me, I think this is an essential ingredient of jazz trumpet and maybe jazz lost something when the likes of Clifford Brown, Donald Byrd or even Lee Morgan became more influential. I do like Lee Morgan even if Brown and Byrd leave me a bit cold albeit I think the tendency is worse with someone like Terence Blanchard, who, great composer as he is, I find very difficult to listen to. As for Harry James, he only intermittently player jazz in the late 1930's and most of his work is hugely unappealing to my ears. Shame on you for mentioning his name in conjunction with Roy Eldridge whose best work is absolutely sensational !!

I think that Dorham is a player who could have quite easily have settled in to the current , contemporary idiom. A player born ahead of his time?

Fair enough, Ian - semantics got in the way.

**charles t** · 22-09-14, 18:18

(Ian): "Players like Eldridge and Gillespie are more appealing to me because their tone is not as bright as the likes of Brown and Byrd. Their tone has a burr to it which sounds totally appropriate to jazz . I would also have to say that Gillespie is a much more interesting player from a rhythmic point of view than Brown or Byrd and probably used dynamics on his horn to greater effect than any other trumpeter in the historic of jazz."

Yes, Ian...I too was appreciative enuf of Diz to take an overnite Greyhound (bus) from Chicago-to-NYC to catch Dizzy (& others).

Too bad the night I attended he decided to...once again...play-the-clown, for the entire set.

And, believe me...he wasn't funny (exclm mark assumed).

**Ian Thumwood** · 22-09-14, 19:17

It is extremely frustrating when you pay your money to hear someone and they mess around. I can't recall witnessing this too often and never with any real "stars." I suppose the nearest I've come was a Herbie Hancock gig when he toured "Rivers of Imagination" where the band was coasting. Not a bad concert but no where as near as good as it should have been. A rare lapse for Herbie - when he is on form he is probably the musician I find the most compelling when performing live.

It is fascinating to hear the trumpet played in an almost "non-trumpet" manner. The first time I was aware of this was hearing Benny Carter who tackled the trumpet like a reed instrument when he switched horns. Somehow, he wasn't quite as demonstrative as a normal trumpeter although far better than you might have anticipated. Probably the best "doubling" trumpet player I'm aware of. However, the best example for me seem to be Kenny Dorham and Ambrose Akinmusire although Don Cherry's pocket trumpet has no relationship to anything else. It's difficult to put Cherry in to the "trumpet" lineage category as he is so idiosyncratic. Cherry can be compelling and arresting but I think his crowning achievement is "Art Deco" from the mid 1980's which is perhaps his most mainstream offering.

For Dorham at his prime, the obvious record is Joe Henderson's "Our thing" which, despite it's horrible cover, it probably the most under-rated album Blue Note ever issued. It is a masterpiece and, in my opinion, a precursor to much of the post-bop jazz that has been around since the 1980's. "Our thing" goes beyond bop and offers an approach which still would not sound dated in 2014.

Intrigued to hear Blakey's reference to Dorham's rebellion as it is not clear whether this was a personnel or musical rebellion. Blakey is a bit of an enigma to me as he seemed to always champion the next generation of jazz musicians whilst playing in a style and approach that seems to borrow a lot from his mentor Chick Webb. I like some of the Blakey recordings and concur that he led some terrific band but I don't feel that time has served his later work too well. The Messengers sounded thunderous at the time but fast forward thirty years and the last editions of the bands sound like contemporary players imprisoned in an increasingly archaic style of drumming. Funny to read the likes of the more technically accomplished Buddy Rich criticised on this board when I think Art Blakey could have similar criticisms levelled against him.

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 22-09-14, 20:18

Ian, according to Blakey, Kenny was drinking a lot at that time and would get heavy with the rest of the band and threaten to leave if things weren't to his satisfaction. He did soon quit and form the Jazz Prophets with J.R. Monterose. But Blakey has a bit of rep for his "stories" so perhaps it ain't exactly so.

BN.

BTW, despite Blakey's supposed "thundering" I have found him usually very supportive on other people's dates. He's superb with Monk, wonderful on Mobley's Soul Station and very relaxed on Something Else and Lee Morgan's Leeway. Tina Brook's Minor Move is another. Great support without trying to dictate the session. He may have got a "little" overbearing in his last years but I often find some of those bands and routines pretty vapid anyway. If you've been playing Blues March for 40 years I guess you get a little rattle happy.

**Ian Thumwood** · 22-09-14, 21:08

Bluesnik

I like Blakey but in the 1980's he was seen as a kind of jazz Godfather and every trumpeter after Wynton seemed to be heralded even before they had effectively created a sympathetic body of work. Several years ago Radio 3 played an old Blakey gig from the 1980s and it seemed to have aged tremendously. Every time I hear Blakey, I hear Chick Webb. Don't get me wrong, I love both drummers and can admire the powerhouse approach of their playing . However, it would have been interesting to see how Webb would have coped in to the 1940's as a younger generation of drummers emerged with new ideas and made him sound as antiquated as Jelly Roll Morton who he notoriously ridiculed. The same goes for Blakey who sounded from another era in comparison with the likes of DeJohnette, Peter Erskine or Bill Stewart who were around at the same time.

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 22-09-14, 21:17

Fair enough. I do find most of Blakey's 80s stuff bland and boring although that's perhaps damning some good young emerging players As you say the Godfather bit got more than a bit tedious at times. As did the format.

BN.

**Serial_Apologist** · 22-09-14, 21:21

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

Bluesnik

I like Blakey but in the 1980's he was seen as a kind of jazz Godfather and every trumpeter after Wynton seemed to be heralded even before they had effectively created a sympathetic body of work. Several years ago Radio 3 played an old Blakey gig from the 1980s and it seemed to have aged tremendously. Every time I hear Blakey, I hear Chick Webb. Don't get me wrong, I love both drummers and can admire the powerhouse approach of their playing . However, it would have been interesting to see how Webb would have coped in to the 1940's as a younger generation of drummers emerged with new ideas and made him sound as antiquated as Jelly Roll Morton who he notoriously ridiculed. The same goes for Blakey who sounded from another era in comparison with the likes of DeJohnette, Peter Erskine or Bill Stewart who were around at the same time.

I too love Art Blakey, and it has never really occurred to me that his drumming style remained virtually unchanged through the stylistic evolutions of the more advanced musical environments younger musicians brought to the Messengers - I suppose because revival hard bop played such a big part in the 1980s when I got re-interested in jazz after my Fusion and Progrock diversions in the '70s made whatever came along easy to take for granted. Art never had that flexibility and openmindedness to adventure that allowed Max Roach to extend himself into freer areas of the music and proclaim its political significance.

I've never read anything about what those two titans of "modern jazz drumming" thought of each other, btw.

**Ian Thumwood** · 22-09-14, 21:35

SA

Blakey's old-style is pretty apparent on the stuff he produced in the 1980's. Some great talent passed through these bands but they are never revered in quite the same fashion as the line ups of the 50'sand 60's. I think this is largely because anyone and everyone seemed to pass through this group - even Keith Jarrett had a brief stint. The "classic" Blakey sides seemed to be part of what jazz was about at the time and he would even have seemed quite relevant when all the "Neo-bop" stuff was fashionable in the 1980's. However, even as a teenager getting in to jazz, I could recognise that drumming was changing with player's like DeJohnette and Stewart seeming to give the soloists a less intrusive groove to express themselves over. With Blakey, it seemed almost competitive. I don't think Blakey was quite as ahead of the game as people might have thought at the time. He was one of the few greats leading a band and perhaps offered an alternative to Miles' descent in to fusion. There was so much happening in jazz by the mid-80's that it was inevitable that Blakey's drummer sounded like something with it's roots back 30-40 years back in the past. The music changed so quickly that this was bound to happen but, what is interesting, is that how quickly jazz seemed to establish an equilibrium. Jazz doesn't seem quite so modish or factional now as it did 30 years ago and the more "traditionalist" of players who've picked up the baton from the 1960's Avant garde seem more typical. (Thinking of the likes of William Parker, Hamid Drake, Oliver Lake, the current Chicago crew, Nicole Mitchell, Dave Douglas, etc, etc.) Jazz isn't quite so gimmicky as it was in the 1980's and players like Dorham , Hill, Dolphy, etc would all easily fit in to the current scene today. Blakey would probably seem anachronistic in 2014.

JRR20 Sep 2014

JRR20 Sep 2014

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