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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4164

    Product

    I was interested in Neil Cowley's comments during this weekend's JLU. He came across as being a pretty agreeable kind of character as well as reminding me a lot of the comedian Marcus Brigstock. The comments he made about his new record were fascinating and I was very intrigued with his remarks about engaging a producer from the pop field as opposed to a jazz musician. This made me pay attention as I'd previously dismissed his music as a Bad Plus style outfit and therefore of marginal interest.

    When I last saw the Bad Plus they had engaged Joshua Redman and the quartet produced a performance that seemed to capture the spontaneity that is the essence of great jazz despite my very extreme prejudice against their music of hearing them perform for the first time. With Neil Cowley's trio there seemed to be a very conscious effort for the creation of a recording where the production process seemed to be as essential ingredient as the actual music. The resultant music was agreeable enough but seemed a little too polished. It seems strange to hear a jazz musician discuss his record producer even though this is a relationship which obviously exists with all records. For me, the producers in jazz who have made the largest contribution are probably Teo Maceo and Manfred Eicher and whereas the former may have contributed to some of the most formidable records in jazz history, it was done under the auspices of CBS which had the budgets to lavish on well-produced and marketed LP's.

    Without doubt, a good producer same make a good recording in to a truly great one. Yet listening to Neil's comments and the ensuing record, I kept on being reminded by Mr Improv's famous put downs on the old message board of record being released as product as opposed to art. Neil Cowley's direction may be inspired by the reduced CD sales that have increasingly become a factor since Mr Improv's heyday yet a cynic might take the view that this trio effort was more of a pop act / commercial than most mainstream jazz acts. Granted that it wasn't as if someone like Dangermouse had been engaged to produce his record but the concept is so staggeringly different from the approach of someone like Bob Weinstock or Alfred Lyons that I felt this fascinating interview was worthy of comment. Surprised that no one has picked up on this yet.
  • aka Calum Da Jazbo
    Late member
    • Nov 2010
    • 9173

    #2
    .. ahem! let's not mention every Miles Davis album from In A Silent Way on eh......
    According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

    Comment

    • Ian Thumwood
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 4164

      #3
      Yes but the whole studio process has the potential to created something that is a fraud. With Miles' later work, he may have pursued a more commercial agenda yet the integrity still remained on albums like "Aura" or "Tutu." A lot of his CBS output made sense at the time but the 30-odd intervening years have not been kind to the music.

      I think a good producer can tailor some of a jazz artist's excesses and create something new ("Bitches brew") and rein in the lack of discipline on some records. You yourself have criticised jazz musicians for "noodling" and therefore I would have thought you might have seen the benefits of a good producer, That said, the Cowley interview suggested to me a desire to produce a "product" as opposed to channelling in the creative focus. Neil Cowley probably made some point about this during the interview but I would have to listen again. It is an interesting scenario. Some producer-driven records can seem a bit processed but they can also lead to a more focussed recording. Shame some of Keith Jarrett's excesses couldn't have been controlled but I'm not sure if a more "glossy" Jarrett trio recording would be as interesting as a live recording when the musicians are really in the zone. The problem is when flabby recordings with soloists running the changes or "going around the block" as my piano teacher would say produce records that become monotonous.

      One really lousy recent record which has been over-produced in the latest Gerald Clayton disc - a good example of where a decent producer would have advised him not to sing or let the musicians have more space. All in all, a great line up wasted on a very uneven record even of some of the tunes are quite good. I'm beginning to think that labels like Criss Cross and Delmark have got it right - can't see the route taken by Neil Cowley resulting in anything that a more limited shelf-life for his record. No problems with this nice, shiny record in 2014 but it will go the way of paisley flares within 24 months. He is better to allow the music to express itself than allowing the producer too greater sway. Just my thoughts....

      Comment

      • Serial_Apologist
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 37628

        #4
        The day when Neil Cowley makes a jazz recording rather than a single B Side "instrumental", circa 1958 , I will eat my hat; so I leave to the imagination my views on his opinions on anything.

        Comment

        • Alyn_Shipton
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 773

          #5
          S-A in case Neil pulls off the impossible:
          Have you seen Despicable Me 2? I saw the movie a few weeks back and I loved it. When I saw the scene (...) Read More

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          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4164

            #6
            Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
            The day when Neil Cowley makes a jazz recording rather than a single B Side "instrumental", circa 1958 , I will eat my hat; so I leave to the imagination my views on his opinions on anything.
            I think that Cowley is a jazz artist but, in the light of the interview, one who is perhaps seeking wider appeal and approval. He is certainly pursuing the kind of marking for his records that would, lime yourself, exclude me yet it seems an intriguing position to have employed a pop producer to mark his record out as being different to the competition. As I said, I had associated his trio as following in the wake of The Bad Plus yet Iverson seems to me to be a genuine jazz artist whose work seems much more rewarding in the context of other groups. He is certainly one of the most thought provoking writers on jazz in the blogosphere.

            Comment

            • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 4279

              #7
              Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
              I think that Cowley is a jazz artist but, in the light of the interview, one who is perhaps seeking wider appeal and approval. He is certainly pursuing the kind of marking for his records that would, lime yourself, exclude me yet it seems an intriguing position to have employed a pop producer to mark his record out as being different to the competition. As I said, I had associated his trio as following in the wake of The Bad Plus yet Iverson seems to me to be a genuine jazz artist whose work seems much more rewarding in the context of other groups. He is certainly one of the most thought provoking writers on jazz in the blogosphere.
              As I dont often agree with Ian about very much I must say I totally agree with that last statement. Iverson is always fascinating as a "critic", has real empathy, but has obviously given time and thought to his analysis and is a great change from a lot of musicians "it was just great man" routine.

              BN. Age. 167.

              Comment

              • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 4279

                #8
                Talking of musician as critics there is a story of Kenny Dorham reviewing a Ted Curson/Bill Barron album for Downbeat, praising it greatly but only giving it three stars. Shortly after Curson stormed up to him in a club and demanded, "Man, if you liked it so much why did you only give me three stars?" Dorham said, "thats all they gave my Trumpet Toccata and that was a hell of a lot better!"

                BN.

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                • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                  Late member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 9173

                  #9
                  one person's star is another person's hole in the head ....



                  1964 too .... what zeitgeist ... the spirit of the times spoke in mysterious ways

                  According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                  Comment

                  • burning dog
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 1510

                    #10


                    see below

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                    • burning dog
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 1510

                      #11

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                      • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                        Late member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 9173

                        #12
                        yep einaudi on little blue poppers eh .....
                        According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                        Comment

                        • Serial_Apologist
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 37628

                          #13
                          Yers indeed - 2 wrongs don't make a right. I listened again to the Einaudi on Carl Popper's/Cowley "Look Mama No Breaks" the Motor Manufacturer/speed on delivery 50 years late, and decided a better title would have been "His Knobhead".

                          Comment

                          • Ian Thumwood
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 4164

                            #14
                            Bruce Hornsby has worked in jazz (I believe he recorded an album with Jack DeJohnette) but I've never heard him in this kind of setting.

                            The "Later " clip with Cowley didn't really seem to be jazz to my ears.

                            Comment

                            • burning dog
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 1510

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
                              .

                              The "Later " clip with Cowley didn't really seem to be jazz to my ears.

                              I agree, and it wasn't very good anything IMO

                              the Bruce Hornsby was OK "pop piano"



                              What did Popper think of Horace Silver?

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