..... which ear ungifted ne'er heard

[Tom Audustus]

In fairness to Roy Budd, I understood that he was a composer for film and TV who also liked to ply jazz - a kind of British Andre Previn?

I would have to share SA's perception of Dave Brubeck but I think that he was still the most interesting of the soloists in his quartet. I can't stand Paul Desmond's alto sound which , for me, is amongst the most "un -jazz like" in jazz. He's almost like a 1950's Kenny G insofar as to the purity of sound. Brubeck is like a swing era pianist who had absorbed some of the vocabulary of the Classical composers from between the two world wars and at least there was a spikey quality in his solos that contrasted with the ultra-smooth alto. The early 1950's was probably amongst the most conservative periods in jazz with the music looking for direction after the death of Parker and the more creative thinkers in the music caught between more formal writing and running the changes. So many of the more interesting soloists / creative forces were "taken out" by drug addiction in this period you can appreciate the wholesome appeal of Brubeck as well as understanding just how the music seemed to reach a point of paralysis. I think by about 1957 jazz had "corrected itself" and the flood of classic albums and groups began to assert themselves. However, by this time, Brubeck had managed to cement a reputation for himself even if SA isn't the first person I have heard mention the suspicion with which Brubeck was viewed by jazz fans in the 1950's / 60's.

On the subject of dross and notwithstanding the fact that the appeal of Bob Dylan has also passed me by (absolutely no interest) , I couldn't believe the Lars Danielsson track posted by Calum. Got to say this tends to send me to sleep and I'm not sure if it is actually jazz. It sounds like something that they used to play in supermarkets in the 1970's. Absolute rank. It's incredible just how dire European jazz can be and whilst the Scandinavians in the past may have been Europe's bastions of great jazz , the latest generation seem intent on reducing their contribution to Easy Listening. I thought jazz was supposed to have some balls ? King Oliver would have thrown his horn away in disgust if he would realise that jazz would involve in to something better suited to being played on an automated telephone answering service.

There's a place on my cd shelf for the reflective, classical & folk influenced, nordic ECM albums as well as the good old Blue Note reissues.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

as ever good to know your thoughts Ian .....

[Jazzrook]

Alyn includes Mr F Waller playing in London

JLU goes Sinatra/Lounge with Mr C Stigers and the Danish Radio Big Band after checking out some new releases nice


Geoffrey salutes Roland Kirk bless

Jon3 gives us:

"avant-funk trio Medeski Martin & Wood, in a standout performance from last year's London Jazz Festival."

cool

Wonderful programme on Rahsaan Roland Kirk from GSJ. I was bowled over by 'I've Got Your Number' from the 1963 album 'Kirk Meets the Benny Golson Orchestra'. Currently, prices in excess of £2000 are being asked for this on Amazon. Someone please reissue.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

... the Complete Mercury set is available used for £88 on Amazon; the Golson orchestra is on that too ...

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I met a bloke in a pub today who took everything I said literally and seemed to have been at every important gig that ever took place. Ornette Coleman Fairfield Hall; Sonny Rollins at Ronnies when he came out of the Gents playing something that wasn't "Bye Bye Blackbird". "I keep meeting people who claimed to have been at the Little Theatre Club", Evan Parker says, adding, "but it could never have been true: there wouldn't have been enough room to fit them all in".

I once had a long conversation with the drummer Alan Jackson in a toilet in Porlock, Somerset! Does this count? He was playing the local Arts Fest with Michael Garrick and Jimmy Hastings. Mid 80s.

BN.

Re Ianesco's savage critique of Paul Desmond....Jackie Mclean greatly admired his playing...

You see what OPEN minds can do?

AND I always liked that Desmond used to sign autographs at the height of Take Five....."Good Luck from Chet Baker!"

[Ian Thumwood]

Re Ianesco's savage critique of Paul Desmond....Jackie Mclean greatly admired his playing...

You see what OPEN minds can do?

"

Yes, but the McLean would have admired elements of his playing such as technique and the sound that Desmond coaxed out of his alto. There is an even more celebrated account of Ornette admiring Jimmy Dorsey's playing which, if anything, is an even more extreme example because Dorsey was never that convincing as a soloist and there is a sourness about his sound that makes his music difficult to take these days. Anthony Braxton was another admirer of Desmond - I can see the connection with that whereas McLean's comments seem incongruous if you consider that his more abrasive approach was the polar opposite of what Desmond's music was about.

I wouldn't call my comments about Desmond savage. It is just that I don't like that style of jazz .

[Quarky]

I would have to share SA's perception of Dave Brubeck but I think that he was still the most interesting of the soloists in his quartet. I can't stand Paul Desmond's alto sound which , for me, is amongst the most "un -jazz like" in jazz. He's almost like a 1950's Kenny G insofar as to the purity of sound. Brubeck is like a swing era pianist who had absorbed some of the vocabulary of the Classical composers from between the two world wars and at least there was a spikey quality in his solos that contrasted with the ultra-smooth alto.

On the subject of dross and notwithstanding the fact that the appeal of Bob Dylan has also passed me by (absolutely no interest) , I couldn't believe the Lars Danielsson track posted by Calum. Got to say this tends to send me to sleep and I'm not sure if it is actually jazz. It sounds like something that they used to play in supermarkets in the 1970's. Absolute rank. .

Ian Thumwood's knowledgeable posts always interesting to read, although opinions should be taken with a pinch of salt. For me all the famous Jazz sax players have a tone, whether it's cool West coast or East coast, which is a million miles away from the open and pure "classical" tone - a good example of which was "Deep Purple" played on recent Young Musician of the Year.

[Alyn_Shipton]

Ian If you were a saxophonist, you'd know that reed players of a certain age thought Jimmy Dorsey was the bee's knees because he had a technique that way surpassed most others of the age. Ornette was still marvelling in the 50s, but Lester Young (according to Lewis Porter and Frank Bochmann Muller) thought Dorsey and Frank Trumbauer were both role models.... And BTW, I think Desmond was one of the most romantic of soloists in terms of his phrasing and timing. His solo albums, like Skylark for Creed Taylor show off aspects of his playing not always apparent from the Brubeck work. And, he gave his piano to Bradleys in NY, giving me and others who went there in its heyday, countless nights of listening to great players on a great instrument.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Ian If you were a saxophonist, you'd know that reed players of a certain age thought Jimmy Dorsey was the bee's knees because he had a technique that way surpassed most others of the age. Ornette was still marvelling in the 50s, but Lester Young (according to Lewis Porter and Frank Bochmann Muller) thought Dorsey and Frank Trumbauer were both role models.... And BTW, I think Desmond was one of the most romantic of soloists in terms of his phrasing and timing. His solo albums, like Skylark for Creed Taylor show off aspects of his playing not always apparent from the Brubeck work. And, he gave his piano to Bradleys in NY, giving me and others who went there in its heyday, countless nights of listening to great players on a great instrument.

There is a story that when the Brubeck quartet was on some US variety TV show, a black dancer asked, just to make conversation, what make of horn he played and the set up etc. He said, "What, so you can tell Cannonball?!!!"


I think he had a very dry sense of humour and I'm a great fan of the Qrt dates with Jim Hall and the Desmond/Mulligan session.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

One of the best jazz books I have read is Gene Lee's "Meet me at Jim & Andy's" which offers pen portraits of various musicians who used to frequent this bar. Desmond is one of those characters and Lee's shows him to have a brilliant sense of humour. For what it is worth, I think Lee was a brilliant writer and someone whose opinion was always interesting even if he does come across as an arch-conservative.

It is a good coincidence that Alyn mention's Trumbauer as I was listening to his a lot last week in my car. There is a coolness about his phrasing that you can see feeding down to Lester Young and many other modernists of the 1950's. It is quite easy to be dismissive of his playing in 1927 but not once you recall how players like Hawkins were playing at that time too. I think the sax was still in it's infancy until a couple of years later.

I think player's perceptions of other performers are always interesting as they will have insider knowledge about how to play an instrument so that they might consider certain musicians higher than others for reasons not apparent to the casual jazz fan. However, picking up on the idea of jazz soloists being "romantic" is probably worthy of a thread in itself. Setting aside the various merits of musicians working with strings, the most obvious examples of soloists who you would consider to be "romantic" would be Ruby Braff, Bobby Hackett, Stan Getz and you could even broaden the net to include someone on the fringes of jazz like Harry James. Personally, these aren't musicians I particularly like and whilst, as Bluesnik points out, I could find a place for the later work by Getz, a player like Ruby Braff is too saccharine for me to listen to - as much as I love "mainstream jazz." There is almost a perception that jazz is compromised if it becomes too sentimental and there is a fine balance to be had if this is to be successful. I generally shy aware from ballad albums for this reason but a disc like Branford's "Eternal" probably nails this approach to perfection as it doesn't sacrifice toughness for the kind of glibness I associate with Paul Desmond. I can totally appreciate his musicianship and Getz's too for that matter. It is just not my taste. If you want to equate "Romanticism" with jazz, surely there is no finer example than Bix?

In contrast, if a "Romantic" element does have a place in jazz (and I am not convinced that it is such a favourable component) I would have to plum for players like Ben Webster, Ike Quebec or even David Murray where there is an underlying toughness in the music beneath the surface. The problem with "romantic" is that it can be marooned by the passage of time and seem a bit hackneyed or dated. I seem to recall that composers like Tchaikovsky are similarly dismissed by many critics of classical music for the chocolate box approach to composition even if I understand that this might be a bit unfair. (Can't comment as I've only ever listen to "1812.")

I once found myself mistakenly at a concert by the singer Seal and was amazed at the reaction of the female members of the audience. Granted that he had nothing to do with jazz (don't know why Vienne booked him other than £££££££££££££) but he was "giving large" to the ladies in the audience. Not an experience I would be anxious to repeat but it just goes to show that pop music can always surpass jazz when it comes to being slushy. The experience was slightly nauseating and had to leave after about 5 tunes.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I think Kenny Dorham was a wonderfully "romantic" ballad player in the very best sense...no sugar but heartfelt, a superb note placement, and with a realisation of what the song and its lyrics were about.

BN.

The fact that he sang also may have helped. A JRR looms...

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

speaking of tone &c

[Quarky]

And BTW, I think Desmond was one of the most romantic of soloists in terms of his phrasing and timing. His solo albums, like Skylark for Creed Taylor show off aspects of his playing not always apparent from the Brubeck work. .

Yes I think a separate thread on "romantic" Jazz would be a good idea. Or at least some clarification of what is meant by romanticism in Jazz.

As I appreciate matters, the 19th century Romanticism movement in Art covered a lot of ground, and had a great deal of philosophical underpinning. It is possible that Jazz in its entirety would be regarded as Romantic in that sense.

And then there is "romantic" jazz, the type that is played on Dinner Jazz, Jazz FM, for cuddling up and canoodling. If anyone indulges in those activities any more.

But I feel this thread is talking about another sense of romanticism. But giving heartfelt expression to a song: is that romantic? Or isn't that what the greater part of Jazz is about?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

As I appreciate matters, the 19th century Romanticism movement in Art covered a lot of ground, and had a great deal of philosophical underpinning. It is possible that Jazz in its entirety would be regarded as Romantic in that sense.

this wicki entry offers much support to this view Oddball

In the contemporary music culture, the romantic musician followed a public career depending on sensitive middle-class audiences rather than on a courtly patron, as had been the case with earlier musicians and composers. Public persona characterized a new generation of virtuosi who made their way as soloists, epitomized in the concert tours of Paganini and Liszt, and the conductor began to emerge as an important figure, on whose skill the interpretation of the increasingly complex music depended

could read well as a story of jazz ...

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

on the other hand it would not be hard to see this as an example of finely calculated music making and not in the least romantic in the expressive sense; bearing the same relationship to Echt romantischen Kunst as ice cream to ambrosia ...

but yum yum in either case!