..... which ear ungifted ne'er heard

[Serial_Apologist]

More concerned with subjective expression than objective formalisation would be one element of Romanticism as conventionally defined. As in the case of Romantic composers who place spontaneity over deliberation, (Mahler's handwriting compared with Stravinsky's), while not ignoring it altogether, jazz subordinates shape to expression.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

".....while not ignoring it
altogether, jazz subordinates shape
to expression."

"Hey Fat Man, you just got in our town,
Hey Fat Man, Hey Fat Man"

Fats Domino..."Hey Fatman". Imperial Records.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

I'm not sure I am convinced about some of these comments about Romanticism in jazz. If you trace jazz back to it's origins, it was certainly never envisaged as being "romantic" and anything that tended to lend itself towards this disposition was ridiculed. I don't think you could call much of the very best jazz in the 20's and 30's as being remotely "romantic" even if it was possible by as early at the late 1930's to view musicians like Bix as being Romanticised. (For example, the Bunny Berigan recordings of Bix piano compositions made around 1938?) In those days, I would have thought that romantic = sweet and perhaps manifested itself in the music of such bands as Guy Lombardo and Shepp Fields that were ridiculed on records such as Don Redman's "Shakin' the African" or on a whole swathe of Lunceford recordings which I think were often dark satires on white "sweet" bands.

The notion of jazz being "romantic" probably took off with Parker + strings. Personally, the alto playing is terrific yet the string writing remains of it's era. I don't agree with Calum about Johnny Hodges being a romantic player even if few jazz musicians before or since could deliver a ballad quite like him. As far as Kenny Dorham being considered as "romantic" - I don't buy that for an instant. By the 1950s I feel that you start getting the malaise of jazz musicians showing a more romantic tendency whether it is Chet Baker, Ruby Braff or paul Desmond. After 60 years, some of these records sound insipid and I would have to say that I don't really like Braff's playing any more than say Harry James or Charlie Spivak - both of whom are pretty removed from jazz from a 2014 perspective. I love great ballad playing whether we are talking Freddie Hubbard, David s Ware or Fred Hersch but when it tips over to being "romantic" in the hands of other musicians there is always a suspicion of the music being cheesy. In jazz, it is more a by-product of 1950's consumerism and the advent of LP's. I would have to say that it would do someone like Billie Holiday a huge disservice to describe her music as romantic even if there is a quality within her voice that captures human emotion to an extent few others have achieved.

Picking upon SA's comments, I think that the Romantic Classical composers eventually took the music in a direction that Beethoven might not have approved of if you consider him as the precursor of the movement. I do like Classical music but if you wanted to level criticism about it, you could say that the Romantics tended to make their music a tad over-wrought just at the Baroque composers could be generalised as sounding very similar to each other. (or at least the ones who weren't greats like Bach or Scarlatti.) The Romantics eventually got lost in Victorian excess so that the Impressionists sounded like a breath of fresh air and the neo-classicists even more so.

[Serial_Apologist]

I personally wouldn't equate Romantic with soft-centred, though...

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

"By the 1950s I feel that you start getting the malaise of jazz musicians showing a
more romantic tendency whether it
is Chet Baker, Ruby Braff or paul
Desmond."

A doctor writes..."Ve have vays of treating ze romantic jazz malaise vith drugs but ze only thing zees clownz understand iz a good beatingz by ze state politz."

BN.

Tomorrow...The entire world history of Theoretical Physics..."Where Niels Bohr fkd up."

[Ian Thumwood]

"By the 1950s I feel that you start getting the malaise of jazz musicians showing a
more romantic tendency whether it
is Chet Baker, Ruby Braff or paul
Desmond."

A doctor writes..."Ve have vays of treating ze romantic jazz malaise vith drugs but ze only thing zees clownz understand iz a good beatingz by ze state politz."

BN.

Tomorrow...The entire world history of Theoretical Physics..."Where Niels Bohr fkd up."

Bluesnik

I recommend that you have a look at the catalogue for Avid records who are currently re-issuing loads of out of licence recordings from up to about 1960 in sets of 4 LPs on 2CD's and you will be surprised at the number of records issued that refer to "Romance " as a marketing tool for the record. Most of the records were previously unfamiliar but the whole oeuvre was almost a "must have" in the recorded output of jazz musicians , especially in the 1950's. most of these records were probably lost to history until Avid retrieved them. Not all the musicians were modernists and a good number of veterans from the big bands cropped up in these kind of efforts. Probably not your area of interest and under your radar but this not hide the fact that these "jazz for lovers" albums were in abundance in the 1950's although obviously not in Wales.

Despite your put down, I am serious about my comment. This was still a time when jazz was popular music and it coincided with the rise of LPs and the increased amount of disposable income. All sorts of unexpected musicians such as Joe Newman crop up in these formats and these records must have sold for so many players to record this kind of output. As jazz was replaced by Rock and The Beatles I suppose the market for this kind of jazz diminished. By the time that jazz arrived in the 1960's I guess that tastes had changed as jazz became more esoteric and it was the more visceral elements of the music that became favoured. Maybe the last, most modern example was the Coltrane album with Hartman??

It's curious to read your comments sometimes as you stick up for older musicians where the quality of music might have dipped but slate anything modern in the same idiom. Wonder if you would have appreciated Gregory Porter if he had recorded in Mono - he is probably he nearest thing to romantic in jazz at the moment although described by yourself as "cloying." I'd agree 50% but the better stuff he has produced is exceptionally good. I'd be curious to hear why you think Herb Jefferies is any less cloying or Johnny Hartman for that matter?

What we are arguing about here is taste. I think it differs with each generation an each younger generation gets progressively more cynical.

[Quarky]

.. And BTW, I think Desmond was one of the most romantic of soloists in terms of his phrasing and timing. His solo albums, like Skylark for Creed Taylor show off aspects of his playing not always apparent from the Brubeck work. And, he gave his piano to Bradleys in NY, giving me and others who went there in its heyday, countless nights of listening to great players on a great instrument.

Well I'm still not any clearer about the correct use of "romantic" in Jazz. I think it was Alyn who first used the term in this thread to describe aspects of Desmond's playing, I guess in "The Way You look tonight".

A brilliant track imv, both Desmond and Brubeck excellent. The Way You Look tonight is obviously a romantic song/tune in common parlance, it describes love between man and woman (or between two human persons). Desmond and Brubeck kept the underlying emotion of the song there, while improvising brilliantly. But I'm not sure that I would describe their contributions as "romantic" (unless all Jazz improvisers are regarded as romantic in a general sense).

Ian uses the term in the sense of a Jazz musician performing, but with an eye on the market for romantic music -music for lovers - which is mainly met by pop music. But I'm not sure it is a valid criterion to judge a Jazz musician. Rather like judging Mozart or Beethoven by their "pop" piano concertos.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Well I'm still not any clearer about the correct use of "romantic" in Jazz. I think it was Alyn who first used the term in this thread to describe aspects of Desmond's playing, I guess in "The Way You look tonight".

A brilliant track imv, both Desmond and Brubeck excellent. The Way You Look tonight is obviously a romantic song/tune in common parlance, it describes love between man and woman (or between two human persons). Desmond and Brubeck kept the underlying emotion of the song there, while improvising brilliantly. But I'm not sure that I would describe their contributions as "romantic" (unless all Jazz improvisers are regarded as romantic in a general sense).

Ian uses the term in the sense of a Jazz musician performing, but with an eye on the market for romantic music -music for lovers - which is mainly met by pop music. But I'm not sure it is a valid criterion to judge a Jazz musician. Rather like judging Mozart or Beethoven by their "pop" piano concertos.

Long ago and far away when jazz had roots and was "connected" it was a functional music. It supported dance, celebration, expression, misery, anger, protest, life, death etc etc. All the "humanity". And yes, "romance", that very human activity. So since when did "romance" become a kind of leprosy? Since (some) white middle class fans started giving it marks out of ten with their new coloured pen and stern detention for "under achievement"? Sorry, we have just deducted ten points for your creeping romanticism, next it will be a written warning.

Ben Webster didn't understand the place of romance? Lester, Charlie Parker (with and without "strings" sic), Dexter, Dorham, Miles et al....really?

This is really tragic stuff and if they gave "military" marks for sweeping generalisations, Ian would have invaded Poland leading the Werhmacht.


BN.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Well I'm still not any clearer about the correct use of "romantic" in Jazz. I think it was Alyn who first used the term in this thread to describe aspects of Desmond's playing, I guess in "The Way You look tonight".

A brilliant track imv, both Desmond and Brubeck excellent. The Way You Look tonight is obviously a romantic song/tune in common parlance, it describes love between man and woman (or between two human persons). Desmond and Brubeck kept the underlying emotion of the song there, while improvising brilliantly. But I'm not sure that I would describe their contributions as "romantic" (unless all Jazz improvisers are regarded as romantic in a general sense).

Ian uses the term in the sense of a Jazz musician performing, but with an eye on the market for romantic music -music for lovers - which is mainly met by pop music. But I'm not sure it is a valid criterion to judge a Jazz musician. Rather like judging Mozart or Beethoven by their "pop" piano concertos.

Long ago and far away when jazz had roots and was "connected" it was a functional music. It supported dance, celebration, expression, misery, anger, protest, life, death etc etc. All the "humanity". And yes, "romance", that very human activity. So since when did "romance" become a kind of leprosy? Since (some) white middle class fans started giving it marks out of ten with their new coloured pen and stern detention for "under achievement"? Sorry, we have just deducted ten points for your creeping romanticism, next it will be a written warning.

Ben Webster didn't understand the place of romance? Lester, Charlie Parker (with and without "strings"), Dexter, Dorham, Miles et al....really?

This is really tragic stuff and if they gave "military" marks for sweeping generalisations, Ian, not for the first time, would have invaded Poland leading the Werhmacht.


BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

er not to mention the difference between Romance and romance

Romanticism, attitude or intellectual orientation that characterized many works of literature, painting, music, architecture, criticism, and historiography in Western civilization over a period from the late 18th to the mid-19th century. Romanticism can be seen as a rejection of the precepts of order, calm, harmony, balance, idealization, and rationality that typified Classicism in general and late 18th-century Neoclassicism in particular. It was also to some extent a reaction against the Enlightenment and against 18th-century rationalism and physical materialism in general. Romanticism emphasized the individual, the subjective, the irrational, the imaginative, the personal, the spontaneous, the emotional, the visionary, and the transcendental.

or

ro·mance
noun \rō-ˈman(t)s, rə-; ˈrō-ˌ\
Definition of ROMANCE
1
a (1) : a medieval tale based on legend, chivalric love and adventure, or the supernatural (2) : a prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious (3) : a love story especially in the form of a novel
b : a class of such literature
2
: something (as an extravagant story or account) that lacks basis in fact
3
: an emotional attraction or aura belonging to an especially heroic era, adventure, or activity
4
: love affair
5
capitalized : the Romance languages
Origin of ROMANCE
Middle English romauns, from Anglo-French romanz French, narrative in French, from Medieval Latin Romanice in a vernacular (as opposed to Latin), from Late Latin Romanus Gallo-Romance speaker (as opposed to a Frank), from Latin, Roman
First Known Use: 14th century
Other Literature Terms
apophasis, bathos, bildungsroman, bowdlerize, caesura, coda, doggerel, euphemism, poesy, prosody
2romance
verb

: to have or try to have a romantic relationship with (someone)

: to give special attention to (someone) in order to get something that you want from that person

: to talk about something in a way that makes it seem better than it really is
ro·mancedro·manc·ing
Full Definition of ROMANCE
intransitive verb
1
: to exaggerate or invent detail or incident
2
: to entertain romantic thoughts or ideas
transitive verb
1
: to try to influence or curry favor with especially by lavishing personal attention, gifts, or flattery
2
: to carry on a love affair with
See romance defined for English-language learners »
Examples of ROMANCE

He was always romancing younger women.
She was romanced by several wealthy young men.
The museum's director spends a lot of time romancing potential donors.
a college athlete who's being romanced by several pro teams
They were romancing about the past.

First Known Use of ROMANCE
1655
Rhymes with ROMANCE
advance, barn dance, by chance, clog dance, closed stance, finance, freelance, lap dance, line dance, main chance, New France, round dance...
[+]more
3romance
noun
Definition of ROMANCE
: a short instrumental piece in ballad style
Origin of ROMANCE
German Romanze & French romance, both ultimately from Spanish romance romance, ballad, from Old Occitan & Old French romanz
First Known Use: circa 1854
Ro·mance
adjective \rō-ˈman(t)s, rə-; ˈrō-ˌ\
Definition of ROMANCE
: of, relating to, or being any of the languages developed from Latin (as Italian, French, and Spanish)
See Romance defined for kids »
First Known Use of ROMANCE
1690
Other Language Terms
cognate, collocation, homonym
Rhymes with ROMANCE
advance, barn dance, by chance, clog dance, closed stance, finance, freelance, lap dance, line dance, main chance, New France, romance, round dance, snake dance, square dance, step dance, sun dance, sword dance, tap dance, tea dance, toe dance, war dance
romance
noun (Concise Encyclopedia)

Literary form that developed in the aristocratic courts of mid-12th-century France and had its heyday in France and Germany between the mid-12th and mid-13th century in the works of such masters as Chrétien de Troyes and Gottfried von Strassburg. The staple subject matter is chivalric adventure (see chivalry), though love stories and religious allegories are sometimes interwoven. Most romances draw their plots from classical history and legend, Arthurian legend, and the adventures of Charlemagne and his knights. Written in the vernacular, they share a taste for the exotic, the remote, and the miraculous. Lingering echoes of the form can be found in later centuries, as in the Romanticism of the 18th–19th century and today's popular romantic novels.

it's the top box we are talking about and it does make see jazz as a rebellion against order/rational instrumentality/commercialism and an expression of feeling in the instant ... a 'masterpiece by midnight'

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

My God, Wiki is taking a hammering tonight.

Who said that a classical education was dead?


What did we do before Wiki? Read books? Thankfully we are all now so very post-modern. The mouse always clicks twice.


BN.

BTW, for those who share my sourness, all the recent Ed Reardon episodes are on Youtube. Go click.

[Quarky]

Long ago and far away when jazz had roots and was "connected" it was a functional music. It supported dance, celebration, expression, misery, anger, protest, life, death etc etc. All the "humanity". And yes, "romance", that very human activity. So since when did "romance" become a kind of leprosy? Since (some) white middle class fans started giving it marks out of ten with their new coloured pen and stern detention for "under achievement"? Sorry, we have just deducted ten points for your creeping romanticism, next it will be a written warning.

Ben Webster didn't understand the place of romance? Lester, Charlie Parker (with and without "strings" sic), Dexter, Dorham, Miles et al....really?

This is really tragic stuff and if they gave "military" marks for sweeping generalisations, Ian would have invaded Poland leading the Werhmacht.


BN.

My conclusion is that ALL Jazz musicians are romantic, but that some (Webster, Cole, Sinatra) are more romantic than others.

Certainly to describe a Jazz musican as un-romantic would be equivalent to ex-communication.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Jackhammer man from a jackhammer town,
I can hammer till the sun goes down,
Lord, Lord, well I got them jackhammer blues.
I got them jackhammer blues.

"a narcissist with a messiah complex who abandoned Britain to hang out with rich people in America" if only we'd had an education man, we'd have been contenders man, contenders ...

[Ian Thumwood]

Bluesnip

Ed Reardon is an absolute genius.

When did Romance become a form of leprosy in jazz? Probably started by British jazz critics in the Melody Maker around the early 1930's but would have thought would have become more serious with the advent of Kenny G. (Does he still have that ridiculous bubble perm / Kevin Keegan circa 1978 look?) Probably not helped by Jazz FM's "Dinner Jazz" which serves to render some of your favourite jazz tracks in to a dreamy melange of blandness - an kind of aural equivalent of watching a Tony Pulis team play football.

I have my pens ready to grade your collection of Creed Taylor produced records mindful of the fact that points may be deducted for undue cloyingness or use of accordions.

Don't get me started on "Bande a part" bought on your recommendation. Ok, the lead actress is beautiful but the film is edited my a maniac and littered with almost as many continuity errors as the number of times women's bottoms are patted by the male characters. No wonder Harriet Harman is always so angry is she grew up with this. A kind of French film students' take on Benny Hill with Ellingtonesque music and a constant stream of Citroens. Tres hip in Wales, mind. Quack, quack.

[Serial_Apologist]

Tres hip in Wales, mind. Quack, quack.

And a much-needed antidote to all that enforced bethelated spirit