Young Musician Jazz Award 2014

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Yes....how much of that is its reproduction thro the education system? Jazz still a male concept and career. For a gifted woman, classical. The old bias of the "scene" now re-packaged up with a diploma/career path. Hope not.

BN.

Still I thought JJ was indeed more thoughtful and openly opinionated than I thought would be the case. More please.

Listening to Mr Bone's last very polished Phil Woodsy track. ...makes one wonder what chance a Dolphy or Ornette would have had in youth competition? Told to go home and listen to some Bud Shank records? There does seem to be a certain style thats "approved".

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes....how much of that is its reproduction thro the education system? Jazz still a male concept and career. For a gifted woman, classical. The old bias of the "scene" now re-packaged up with a diploma/career path. Hope not.

BN.

Still I thought JJ was indeed more thoughtful and openly opinionated than I thought would be the case. More please.

Listening to Mr Bone's last very polished Phil Woodsy track. ...makes one wonder what chance a Dolphy or Ornette would have had in youth competition? Told to go home and listen to some Bud Shank records? There does seem to be a certain style thats "approved".

I agree. This has really been the case since the '80s "jazz revival", except we've moved on, though for all the talk of Kenny Wheeler I wonder if Kenny, whose originality stemmed from never feeling he'd mastered bebop until hearing Booker Little "doing it another way", was the right influence to be cited in an 18-year old tackling "Ornithology". I've been listening to a lot of the stuff Elton Dean did in the 1970s and 80s lately, wondering if we'll ever see that kind of originality in jazz again.

[Ian Thumwood]

I can appreciate the arguments and totally agree with Bruce's comments but wonder how much of the problem is a British one and not symptomatic of what might be happening in the States. I agree to an extent with Bluesnik's comments with regard to what is happening in the UK or even Europe where jazz seems to be the end product of an academic system. I don't feel that there is a lack of music coming from the streets in the US and musicians such as Esperanza Spalding, for example, came from extremely humble and un-privileged background. I think the same is true of Ambrose Akinmusire and Stephen Scott. However, in the States these musicians are getting into the music system whereas this is not necessarily the case in the UK.

This topic was alluded to in an earlier thread last month where the merits (or not) of the current European scene were discussed. I think that some communities in the States tend to loo after the younger generation of players and there are organisations like AACM than really do this in the UK or at least have had a track record of doing this since the 1950's.

Where I do disagree with Bluesnik is the argument that the old system of players coming through bands led by their peers always generated a better quality of jazz musician. The old system still managed to produce a number of players who were like jazz robots. This covers all styles of jazz whether we are talking about West Coast session musicians, Hank Mobley or Oscar Peterson - all of them were pretty predictable as soloists and maybe comparable with those sound-a-like musicians being churned out by the colleges today.

For me the issue is that the jazz education system in the UK is still in it's infancy whereas there is a greater culture of jazz courses in the States. Coupled with that, the kinds of teachers available are generally much better or at least steeped in some sort of tradition whether we are talking of Maria Schneider with Gil Evans, Jason Moran with Jaki Byard, Jason Roebke with Roscoe Mitchell or John Hollenbeck with Richard Muhal Abrams. As good as jazz teachers may be in the UK, none are the calibre of the likes listen above.

The idea of a musician who is purely "street" is extremely rare in jazz these days. Maybe the last example of this was Stanley Jordan (whatever happened to him?) since the more free-end of jazz seemed something typical of 50 years ago as opposed to anything recent.

For me, the issue with young players is that they haven't experienced life and often they have nothing to say. I'm getting a little cynical about some of the younger jazz musicians and about ten years ago a format like the piano trio seemed in terminal decline due to colleges churning out Mehldau sound-a-likes. That said, I feel that I have to keep beating the drum with regard to the jazz that is emerging from Chicago these days where the music sounds fresh, genuine and vibrant in a caustic kind of way. Check out musicians like Roebke, Berman, Keefe Jackson and the kind of arguments presented by Bluesnik seem totally unrealistic as they pursue a style of jazz that is unfettered by contemporary fads and taking it's cues from the Free Jazz of the 1960's and giving a defiant middle finger to what has happened in the intervening years. There is plenty of honest jazz being produced by younger players in the States even if Europe seem pleased with itself for it's conveyor belt production of shiny young players whose music is like a Xerox copy of real jazz. Basically, jazz competitions stink as a tool for discerning what is relevant about the contemporary scheme but probably indispensable when it comes to giving young talent a profile. I think is it ridiculous expecting a new Coltrane, Bird or McLean to emerge from these competitions as the current scene is too diffuse and jazz doesn't really sound like that any more - or at least from a superficial point of view. That said, the good jazz will still manage to get out there.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Ian, if you still think Hank Mobley is "robotic" then you yet again have not understood the question. A sound and style totally individual. Then again Stan Getz had to be near death for the marks out of ten. Clifford's still waiting.

As for US "exceptionism", my comments stem in large part from that David Binney interview where he lashes the total cynicism and packaging of the American university system. In which, passe Bruce's point, he has had a hand. I have just heard Bob Brookmeyer on Utube do much the same from an earlier generation. "Even the Glen Miller band could phrase together better!"

Julian's open scepticism re the T.S. Monk competition is well founded. I have just read tbat Bill Clinton is getting a special TS award for "creativity" on his saxophone. ...words f/king fail esp when its Herbie Hancock is doing the grovel.

BN.


On a personal note, I won the Monmouthshire schools under 11 painting competition when I was eight. Today I will be painting an old chair. Red. Who says competition is all downhill.

[Ian Thumwood]

Bluesnik

To pick up your points, I think you need to consider that sometime like Brookmeyer is not going to be a fair and reasonable critic of a musical education. For what it is worth, he himself had been involved in musical education yet, if your argument was correct, he wouldn't have assisted in the development of talent such as Maria Schneider, John Hollenbeck or Darcy James Argue - all three of whom could be argued to be at the very forefront of writing for large jazz ensembles. The comment about Glenn Miller's band is spurious.

I don't know sufficient about the American music education system to comment about what is on the syllabus but have spoken with sufficient teachers / students over the years to understand that there are musical courses where the depth of education in jazz / improvisation is extremely thorough and takes on classes in Indian Classical music as opposed to the notion that the soloists are taught to sound like Bud Shank. You have also alluded to the fact that these courses probably ensure that a significant amount of musicians income can now be earned through education as well as playing on the stand. Of course, the teachers will often have an agenda to pursue and to assume that this is a Wynton-esque one is far from accurate. Again, the students I have met and talked to are all likely to be extremely savvy and curious enough to search to explore the boundaries.

Any generation is likely to produce it's automatons and I think that this has been increasingly the case since the 1950's but I do not know if this is a consequence of a musical education system which has it's roots in courses provided by the North Texas University which I think started producing jazz courses in the late 1940s - at the time Miles was recording with Birth of the Cool and when Tristano had his coterie of adherents. This college has produced a number of musicians who have gone on to have significant careers in jazz . By and large, I think the US system works. Having heard a good number of the bands from the colleges since 2001, I would also argue that quality is generally exceptional and , in comparison with their British and French contemporaries, a million miles apart in quality.

On top of this , the community programmes in the States give access to a massive amount of support so the musicians such as Fred Anderson can ben seen to support a good proportion of the successive generation of players in a city such as Chicago. There is a commentary on the Nicole Mitchell "Black Earth Ensemble" DVD which explains the degree of support from older players and this kind of infra-structure doesn't exist in Europe as there is little tradition of jazz. As I said earlier, an organisation like AACM has a history which is now 50 years old - it is small wonder why the calibre of US jazz seems so high or why so many players leave college and are able to transcend the establishment musical education system. I don't think your idea of musicians falling out of bed playing jazz is entirely accurate anyway . The music is so complex nowadays and has been increasingly so since the 1950's that no on seriously thinks that running the changes is sufficient.

[Quarky]

Yes....how much of that is its reproduction thro the education system? Jazz still a male concept and career. For a gifted woman, classical. The old bias of the "scene" now re-packaged up with a diploma/career path. Hope not.

BN.

Still I thought JJ was indeed more thoughtful and openly opinionated than I thought would be the case. More please.

".

From my (relatively limited) Jazz appreciation, I feel there is a difference in the way that Females play Jazz (vive la difference!). Important qualities of Jazz are rhythm, excitement and brashness - all qualities that males tend to be better at. Thinking of current female stars, Mary Holverson, Esperanza Spaulding, Diana Krall, most female jazz singers, they have a more laid back, subtle and thoughtful approach. So a newcomer female musician might feel at home with the Classical approach.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

True Ian. I am amazed that anyone has the audacity to attempt the "complex" jazz of this afternoon with only a first degree from an Ivy League campus. A doctorate should be a bare minimum. Three is better inc one in marketing.

BN.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

From my (relatively limited) Jazz appreciation, I feel there is a difference in the way that Females play Jazz (vive la difference!). Important qualities of Jazz are rhythm, excitement and brashness - all qualities that males tend to be better at. Thinking of current female stars, Mary Holverson, Esperanza Spaulding, Diana Krall, most female jazz singers, they have a more laid back, subtle and thoughtful approach. So a newcomer female musician might feel at home with the Classical approach.

And then there is "darkies" with their natural sense of "Rydem" ?

WTF.

This site is madder than a box of frogs.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

<http://jazz.unt.edu/node/119>

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

well young Mr Tommy Smith got my juices running and he sounded very unlike Phil W or David S .... i especially liked his take on Breckers blues tune ...

jazz like most serious music is fighting for it's living [so is pop if you notice the non headliners] people do not wish to pay too much for live music and even less for recordings ...

and er yes about state schools - the near complete disappearance of education from state schools is bad news [music/art/history/sport/real science/real maths/ literature/humanities/languages] as opposed to Readers Digest lessons in rote recall and yes sir no sir or else swallow the bucket of Ritalin pills ...

ahem ... on the basis if you build it they might come, having talented and educated middle class kids playing jazz is not a bad thing ... they will want to play it now and then eh? like ARt Themen?

[the DDR Kulturminister did sponsor free jazz innit ... could we have one here please?]

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Middle class kids today take a proper pride in their instruments. Not like in the 80s when they sanded the finish off to look like Willis Jackson on an organ gig in Harlem.

I think the Charterhouse coming-out jazz festival will be a must this year. My partner has ordered a new outfit. I will be wearing off-white linen.

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i blame the 44 Education Act meself; drained all the talent out of the working class and made em bourgeois consumerist &C ... and then look what happened in the 70s the left is all dumbnuts and gets itself handbagged innit .... never have happened in the DDR .... mind you that Jeremy Grantham and John Stuart Till have a lot to answer for as well .... talk about out of touch Spaddies with no concrete grasp of Alienation, so overwhelmed by the dialectic they didn't bleedin notice it eh and goin on about gas bills and utilities or summat ...

course we all know that yer dad and the local brass band is what created bebop in England ....

yeah Jimmy

[Ian Thumwood]

It is nonsense to suggest that an education system knocked the creativity out of the working classes especially as popular music has had a sneering contempt for non-working class bands / artists almost since inception. The issue with jazz is more complex. It is a style of music that gets little airplay and if you want to get access to it, you have to hunt for it.

As I've said before on here, there is little "jazz culture" in Europe and I think the education system here had little or no tradition to support jazz musicians in the way that is apparent in the States. If this wasn't the case, the better young talent wouldn't have gravitated forwarded centres like New York.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

"Could it be that,
for the first time since pop
culture emerged in the 1950s, it
too is being gentrified, even made
elitist? You do not have to look far
for the evidence – even the Daily
Mail acknowledged it in 2010,
citing an article in the now
defunct music magazine, The
Word, which calculated that more
than 60% of that year's successful
pop and rock acts were former
public school pupils compared
with just 1% 20 years ago. " ~ The Guardian.


And theatre, art schools, journalism, the law, media, publishing....even cleaning the tape decks in my front room....

Still as Broonzy often said, "I went to the University of Chicago....as a janitor"

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

It is nonsense to suggest that an education system knocked the creativity out of the working classes

no it is not

try this for starters