S.A
I would agree with some of those choices even though many of your selections include the kind of Americans I have been commenting about. I would also concede that there are some musicians that I could have added to mine. However, my listening experience has largely been hearing American players and whilst there is no doubt that European players have improved over the last fifty years, I don't think that there are many who have really set an agenda for any kind of approach that will match that of a country that invented the music and has had an education industry to foster jazz since the late 1940's when University of Texas first produced a jazz programme for students. Some of the better groups you list like Empircal are so good because they utilise the American model. I'm afraid I'm not convinced by all the groups you have listed even if they include some musicians I like or even, in the case of John Taylor, consider myself to be a fan.
I've heard many good British and French outfits as well as the odd band from places like Switzerland too. However, I think there is a good reason why some of the better players still gravitate towards the States whether we are talking about the Mouton brothers, Ingrid Laubrock or John Escreet. There are American groups which may not be so unimpeachable but I think that you will probably find musicians as good as some of the British names you have listed in most,large American cities. I can recall hearing the Knoxville Jazz orchestra about 13 years ago who blow their audience away. Knoxville isn't a large city but it still could put together a big band full of ex-pros from Woody / Thad Jones, etc as well as commission work from composer Donald Brown.
The point of the thread was that festivals seem intent on booking European acts with increasing regularity and perhaps giving them a similar billing to American counterparts. The American scene is so rich and varied with even the avant garde having a cultural heritage of over fifty years. I would reiterate my contention that there is no big band in Europe who could compete with the Mingus big band, nothing to match an organisation like AACM or continue to churn out talent like Ambrose Akinmusire, Gerald clayton, Esperanza Spalding, etc to name musicians who have emerged in all spheres of jazz in the States.
What is interesting from my experience at Vienne is that there is a discerning audience for jazz out there that does not tolerate b/s. It's fascinating that the better musicians (say, Jeremy Pelt, Spalding, Logan Richardson, rudresh Mahanthappa, etc) seem to attract an audience by word of mouth. I've been to quite a few gigs before these players have been established and the venue was packed. I will grant you that there are some great European players out there but festivals are excluding them in exchange for something modish. Much of the European stuff I've heard is good but certainly not great even if it is markedly better than what you might have expected to have heard in say 1958. Bluensik sums it up for me in that Europe seems to have swallowed it's own publicity. Hearing some European musicians speak disrespectfully of American jazz seems perverse and, as I have said before, their opinions border of racism. What fascinates me is that you can flick through catalogues of labels like Criss Cross, Sunnyside, Delmark, etc and come across unfamiliar names from the States yet still find a quality in the music that outstrips so much that is lauded over here. The musicians may now come from Asia, Europe or South America yet they are all attracted by scene in cities like New York or Chicago. The music from the latter city is very much something new to my ears and I would have to say that there is nowhere in Europe to match the creative, cutting edge jazz than has been emerging from this city in recent years.
Thanks for taking the time to write the list out !!
Ian
I would agree with some of those choices even though many of your selections include the kind of Americans I have been commenting about. I would also concede that there are some musicians that I could have added to mine. However, my listening experience has largely been hearing American players and whilst there is no doubt that European players have improved over the last fifty years, I don't think that there are many who have really set an agenda for any kind of approach that will match that of a country that invented the music and has had an education industry to foster jazz since the late 1940's when University of Texas first produced a jazz programme for students. Some of the better groups you list like Empircal are so good because they utilise the American model. I'm afraid I'm not convinced by all the groups you have listed even if they include some musicians I like or even, in the case of John Taylor, consider myself to be a fan.
I've heard many good British and French outfits as well as the odd band from places like Switzerland too. However, I think there is a good reason why some of the better players still gravitate towards the States whether we are talking about the Mouton brothers, Ingrid Laubrock or John Escreet. There are American groups which may not be so unimpeachable but I think that you will probably find musicians as good as some of the British names you have listed in most,large American cities. I can recall hearing the Knoxville Jazz orchestra about 13 years ago who blow their audience away. Knoxville isn't a large city but it still could put together a big band full of ex-pros from Woody / Thad Jones, etc as well as commission work from composer Donald Brown.
The point of the thread was that festivals seem intent on booking European acts with increasing regularity and perhaps giving them a similar billing to American counterparts. The American scene is so rich and varied with even the avant garde having a cultural heritage of over fifty years. I would reiterate my contention that there is no big band in Europe who could compete with the Mingus big band, nothing to match an organisation like AACM or continue to churn out talent like Ambrose Akinmusire, Gerald clayton, Esperanza Spalding, etc to name musicians who have emerged in all spheres of jazz in the States.
What is interesting from my experience at Vienne is that there is a discerning audience for jazz out there that does not tolerate b/s. It's fascinating that the better musicians (say, Jeremy Pelt, Spalding, Logan Richardson, rudresh Mahanthappa, etc) seem to attract an audience by word of mouth. I've been to quite a few gigs before these players have been established and the venue was packed. I will grant you that there are some great European players out there but festivals are excluding them in exchange for something modish. Much of the European stuff I've heard is good but certainly not great even if it is markedly better than what you might have expected to have heard in say 1958. Bluensik sums it up for me in that Europe seems to have swallowed it's own publicity. Hearing some European musicians speak disrespectfully of American jazz seems perverse and, as I have said before, their opinions border of racism. What fascinates me is that you can flick through catalogues of labels like Criss Cross, Sunnyside, Delmark, etc and come across unfamiliar names from the States yet still find a quality in the music that outstrips so much that is lauded over here. The musicians may now come from Asia, Europe or South America yet they are all attracted by scene in cities like New York or Chicago. The music from the latter city is very much something new to my ears and I would have to say that there is nowhere in Europe to match the creative, cutting edge jazz than has been emerging from this city in recent years.
Thanks for taking the time to write the list out !!
Ian
Comment