Cameron: "Let's export gay marriage!"

[Arcades Project]

If that's your view, then fine. It's a less flexible view than mine. My margin of tolerance is around a conjugal, procreational union between a man and a woman. That model can stand quite a bit of change, but can't accommodate same sex, that changes it into something else.

It's not my view. It's what I see as the logical view of those who see marriage as unchanging, & as divinely sanctioned to remain unchanging. I can see why a "model" is important to scottycelt, I can't see why it is to you. But I'd rather listen to Mozart, so like Pontius Pilate, at least in in this instance, I won't stay for an answer. I'd be intrigued by scottycelt's response, though. Rather than yours on his behalf.

[KipperKid]

The difficulty with KK's approach is that surely it means that the elderly post -procreational and the impotent or those unable to have children for other medical reasons should be banned from marrying ?

It's not my approach, it's the model of marriage, up until recent times. Please do not describe it as my approach.

[amateur51]

I can't imagine why DC keeps obsessing about this. There are surely more important things to pay attention to - for example the appalling level of care that the mentally ill and the elderly get, in some places.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really matter what you call it when two homosexuals live together, though it might have been more sensible to find another noun. Already the word "gay" and the word "partner" have come to mean different things over the past few years. But what people do privately, sexually, provided it doesn't affect others, is in my view up to them and they have to come to terms with it themselves in whatever way they can. And that also seems to be the view of most of my friends and colleagues, FWIW.

DC 'keeps obsessing about this' because he knows that the Tories still struggle under the image of The Nasty Party (prop:T. May). Tory strategists believe that just as Asian communities and Black communities are traditionally not likely to vote Tory, so lesbians and gay men have not forgiven the Tories for their anti-gay legislation section 28 (prop: M. Thatcher). So 'gay marriage' has become Dave's strategy for unleashing the pink Tory vote.

Simples.

[KipperKid]

It's not my view. It's what I see as the logical view of those who see marriage as unchanging, & as divinely sanctioned to remain unchanging. I can see why a "model" is important to scottycelt, I can't see why it is to you. But I'd rather listen to Mozart, so like Pontius Pilate, at least in in this instance, I won't stay for an answer. I'd be intrigued by scottycelt's response, though. Rather than yours on his behalf.

And I'd rather be listening to Merzbow, but I can multitask.

[Simon]

If that's your view, then fine. It's a less flexible view than mine. My margin of tolerance is around a conjugal, procreational union between a man and a woman. That model can stand quite a bit of change, but can't accommodate same sex, that changes it into something else.

I can see that too. The idea of a man and woman getting together in a formal arrangement within which to produce and bring up children has been around a very long time, and as you say, around all that there is room for a lot of tolerance. That there have been major improvements to the role of the woman within this system (at least in the West, though much less so of course in some Muslim and some other less advanced tribal groups) can only be lauded as a civilising advance, but to take away the "produce children" side of things and open it to same sex relationships does seem to be making a more fundamental change than any that have gone before, and the logic of those who regard it as a step too far is clear, whether one agrees with the view or not.

[MrGongGong]

Because it turns marriage into something else.

a newt ?

[KipperKid]

a newt ?

It got better!

[Simon]

DC 'keeps obsessing about this' because he knows that the Tories still struggle under the image of The Nasty Party (prop:T. May). Tory strategists believe that just as Asian communities and Black communities are traditionally not likely to vote Tory, so lesbians and gay men have not forgiven the Tories for their anti-gay legislation section 28 (prop: M. Thatcher). So 'gay marriage' has become Dave's strategy for unleashing the pink Tory vote.

Simples.

Possibly so. I think you have a point.

[amateur51]

This procreational aspect of marriage is such an illusion. Did we really think that Camilla & Chas were going to start having children when they got married at Windsor Registry Office?

Exactly.

[MrGongGong]

though much less so of course in some Muslim and some other less advanced tribal groups.

Yikes
by which, I assume you mean The Plymouth Bretheren et al ?

[Simon]

This procreational aspect of marriage is such an illusion.

Oh dear! Just as you come up with something eminently reasonable, you spoil it with a comment like this.

Just because some people marry too old to have children doesn't for one moment negate the procreational aspect of marrying for the rest!

[KipperKid]

Oh dear! Just as you come up with something eminently reasonable, you spoil it with a comment like this.

Just because some people marry too old to have children doesn't for one moment negate the procreational aspect of marrying for the rest!

Own goal Simon.

[MrGongGong]

O
Just because some people marry too old to have children doesn't for one moment negate the procreational aspect of marrying for the rest!

aaaah a shag licence then ?

My ability to have children and be a good parent has nothing whatsoever to do with whether I am married or not

[Simon]

Yikes
by which, I assume you mean The Plymouth Bretheren et al ?

No, I know little about them. I meant in more recent times - as should have been clear from the phrase "That there have been major improvements to the role of the woman within this system ... can only be lauded as a civilising advance..." - so pay attention, Mr GG!

Actually, what was in my mind was a report I read literally days ago somewhere about some ethnic groups still circumcising women to stop then getting enjoyment from sex. There was an interview with one who had had it done ... very sad and unpleasant.

[amateur51]

Oh dear! Just as you come up with something eminently reasonable, you spoil it with a comment like this.

Just because some people marry too old to have children doesn't for one moment negate the procreational aspect of marrying for the rest!

It's ALWAYS been like this. Just because you & The Kid have this rosy glow idea of parenthood doesn't make it true. The purpose of having children within marriage is to control the DNA, the property, the money, the inheritance - it's a fundamental of Capitalism.

Millions of children in UK these days are born outside marriage. If that is your intrinsic definition of marriage 9a legally and religiously sanctioned relationship within which to have children), the marriage is in a bad state, say I. People have raised two fingers to it and walked the other way.

Sorry