HiFi & Sound reproduction

[MrGongGong]

Your ears are the only measuring instrument that counts and we all have our preferences when it comes to sound. At concerts I find the sound at around row 'M' to be about right for my enjoyment but some people actually prefer to sit right at the front or way back from the orchestra. Fair enough, that is their choice BUT their choice of HiFi, to get 'realism', will need to be completely different from each other and from me.

Blimey
"realism" ?

what a quaint idea .........

[Nevalti]

Blimey
"realism" ?

what a quaint idea .........

Ah, but I am pretty old and do I know what live music sounds like. Strangely, many people do not seem to know.

Sadly, most HiFi systems sound more like HiFi systems. All too many manufacturers engineer them to sound 'impressive' rather than realistic so that they don't sound 'dull' in the shop.

[MrGongGong]

Ah, but I am pretty old and do I know what live music sounds like. Strangely, many people do not seem to know.

I think most of us know what "live" music sounds like (though it depends on what one means by "live" )
but why would you want to make your recorded (i.e Electronic) music sound like that ?

[Nevalti]

I think most of us know what "live" music sounds like (though it depends on what one means by "live" )
but why would you want to make your recorded (i.e Electronic) music sound like that ?

The BBC engineers usually do an excellent job of recording 'live' performances and sometimes R3 actually is live. You can usually tell live broadcasts by the slow decay rate of echoes. If recorded, or especially if sent via DAB (YUK!) or Freeview (yuk!) etc, that decaying echo is treated as 'noise' and chopped out - robbing us of 'realism'.

Commercial studio engineers for CD's etc often do an even better job than the BBC chappies.

[Nevalti]

Does a digital amp necessarily have to be Class D? See recent posts.

No. They range from Class D to Class H, if I remember rightly, but I think that the commercially available ones are all Class D.

You may also see references to Class T amps which is not strictly correct. That refers to a 'T'ripath chip - Tripath is/was a trade name of a company which I believe is now defunct. I have a, so called, Class T amp and it is truly excellent but low on power. Ideal for 'other' rooms. Digital amps have pretty well 'come of age' and seriously rival A & B & AB amps at low power. With the right, sensitive, speakers they can perform with great delicacy just lacking a bit of bass punch. With any speaker they can sound just fine as long as you don't push them towards their maximum power where distortion becomes subtly apparent.

[vinteuil]

I think I need to invest in lots of rooms to provide appropriate 'realistic' listening experiences.

For starters I shall require rooms with the same dimensions as -

The Sistine Chapel
St Mark's, Venice
St Thomas's Leipzig
Church of S Gervais & S Protais, Paris
various Esterhazy palaces
Festspielhaus Bayreuth


mmm, will the Premium Bonds cover???

[Nevalti]

I think I need to invest in lots of rooms to provide appropriate 'realistic' listening experiences.

For starters I shall require rooms with the same dimensions as -

The Sistine Chapel
St Mark's, Venice
St Thomas's Leipzig
Church of S Gervais & S Protais, Paris
various Esterhazy palaces
Festspielhaus Bayreuth


mmm, will the Premium Bonds cover???

I do realise it was meant as a witticism BUT all those places obviously sound as they do because of their particular acoustics. IF those acoustics are well recorded and IF you listened on a perfect reproduction system in an anechoic chamber, the listening experience would be pretty close to the original. Obviously you won't get 3 dimensional sound BUT you can detect that with only two ears and a good two speaker system can make a moderately convincing 3 dimensional audio image.

No, I don't listen in an anechoic chamber. Like most people, I listen in a perfectly normal lounge with carpets, curtains and soft furnishing as well as reflective surfaces and that does of course degrade the audio image of The Albert Hall etc. Just one of the many compromises we have to suffer in our 'normal' lives. I enjoy live concerts; I do realise that nothing at home will ever sound quite the same but I have no hesitation in trying to reproduce that sound quality at home to the best of my ability and the depth of my pocket. I certainly don't feel that I need to apologise for it any more than the millions of people who prefer to watch football, tennis, cricket or golf on HD TV instead of SD TV or even 405 line B&W. Their choice of HD TV makes perfect sense, even if their choice of entertainment may be a mystery to some people. Good HiFi is simply the aural equivalent of HD TV.

In brief, I advocate quality in all things, especially in music. Trying to promote anything other than high quality always seems bizarre to me. Some people like listening to 78s or MP3s or AM radio but they usually do realise that vastly better quality sound is easily available without spending much (any?) money. I don't make jokes at their expense.

[Beef Oven]

I do realise it was meant as a witticism BUT all those places obviously sound as they do because of their particular acoustics. IF those acoustics are well recorded and IF you listened on a perfect reproduction system in an anechoic chamber, the listening experience would be pretty close to the original. Obviously you won't get 3 dimensional sound BUT you can detect that with only two ears and a good two speaker system can make a moderately convincing 3 dimensional audio image.

No, I don't listen in an anechoic chamber. Like most people, I listen in a perfectly normal lounge with carpets, curtains and soft furnishing as well as reflective surfaces and that does of course degrade the audio image of The Albert Hall etc. Just one of the many compromises we have to suffer in our 'normal' lives. I enjoy live concerts; I do realise that nothing at home will ever sound quite the same but I have no hesitation in trying to reproduce that sound quality at home to the best of my ability and the depth of my pocket. I certainly don't feel that I need to apologise for it any more than the millions of people who prefer to watch football, tennis, cricket or golf on HD TV instead of SD TV or even 405 line B&W. Their choice of HD TV makes perfect sense, even if their choice of entertainment may be a mystery to some people. Good HiFi is simply the aural equivalent of HD TV.

In brief, I advocate quality in all things, especially in music. Trying to promote anything other than high quality always seems bizarre to me. Some people like listening to 78s or MP3s or AM radio but they usually do realise that vastly better quality sound is easily available without spending much (any?) money. I don't make jokes at their expense.

I've seen pre-programmed graphic equalisers that can be switched to different listening venues such as rock-arena, jazz club, chamber etc. So if you're serious, you don't need so many rooms.

[Nevalti]

I've seen pre-programmed graphic equalisers that can be switched to different listening venues such as rock-arena, jazz club, chamber etc. So if you're serious, you don't need so many rooms.

Aaarggggggggg! NO!!!!!!! NO!!!!!! NO!!!!!!

[Beef Oven]

Aaarggggggggg! NO!!!!!!! NO!!!!!! NO!!!!!!

[pastoralguy]

I read Lord Sugar's biography when it came out 2 or 3 years ago and, as the founder of AMSTRAD, he had a lot to say about building audio equipment and the smoke and mirrors surrounding supposedly 'high end' equipment. Well worth a read. (I should say I would never have traded my Meridian and Quad ESLs for any AMSTRAD equipment!)

[Phileas]

The AVI web-site does say that the cooling is 'usually' adequate'.

Where does it say that?

They almost certainly have thermal cut-outs to prevent them self-destructing if someone chooses to play them long and loud.

I believe that most AV amps are digital (Class D if you prefer) and barely need any ventilation.

Well, Ashley James of AVI has stated that the (class AB) amps in their active speakera work on a similar principle to (class AB) AV amps, e.g. Yamaha, which also manage perfectly well without massive heatsinking.

As for breaking them if playing long and loud, the user's ears are likely to be the first thing to break!

[jayne lee wilson]

I think most of us know what "live" music sounds like (though it depends on what one means by "live" )
but why would you want to make your recorded (i.e Electronic) music sound like that ?

The whole aim of Classical Music Recording from Richard Mohr and Lewis Layton on, was an attempt to put the orchestra there in your room, in the "Home Concert Hall". A beautiful illusion perhaps, an ever-receding goal, but if it didn't sound close to what you hear at a live concert you wouldn't listen to it for long. So it has to sound as "natural", as UN-electronic, as possible. That's the paradox of classical recording - the art which conceals art, or at least attempts to. It's what has led to the use of 24-bit and DSD. I'm sure Nevalti would agree that the finest equipment is that which disappears, gets out of the way - no artifice or exaggeration, just a clear window onto the recording. (This is why it can seem underwhelming, initially unexciting, to some).
And why a basic rule of mine is - the greater the contrasts between different recordings (orchestras, acoustics, solo instruments), the better the system. The less it is adding its own colourations to the (desirable) colours of the music.

Basic requirements? Neutral tonal balance, high-resolution at low levels, bags of power.
And it's not easy to achieve, as Nevalti and I can both attest. But when you do...

(***I hope those partaking of this vigorous discussion are aware that Ashley James was once Sales Manager at ATC, and has spent many years promoting the virtues of active speakers. As I've said, I found the ATC ASL50s spectacularly dynamic & revealing - but too fatiguing to live with (over a 2-week home trial) But the ATC pre/power amps, (very similar designs to those in the ASLs) will be here as long as I am!)

[Beef Oven]

The whole aim of Classical Music Recording from Richard Mohr and Lewis Layton on, was an attempt to put the orchestra there in your room, in the "Home Concert Hall". A beautiful illusion perhaps, an ever-receding goal, but if it didn't sound close to what you hear at a live concert you wouldn't listen to it for long. So it has to sound as "natural", as UN-electronic, as possible. That's the paradox of classical recording - the art which conceals art, or at least attempts to. It's what has led to the use of 24-bit and DSD. I'm sure Nevalti would agree that the finest equipment is that which disappears, gets out of the way - no artifice or exaggeration, just a clear window onto the recording. (This is why it can seem underwhelming, initially unexciting, to some).
And why a basic rule of mine is - the greater the contrasts between different recordings (orchestras, acoustics, solo instruments), the better the system. The less it is adding it's own colourations to the (desirable) colours of the music.

Basic requirements? Neutral tonal balance, high-resolution at low levels, bags of power.
And it's not easy to achieve, as Nevalti and I can both attest. But when you do...

That's illogical. How can it sound 'natural', if it sounds like something else? It was recorded electronically in a studio/studio conditions and was not performed or heard in a concert hall.

[amateur51]

That's illogical. How can it sound 'natural', if it sounds like something else? It was recorded electronically in a studio/studio conditions and was not performed or heard in a concert hall.

I think the clue lies in the phrase "beautiful illusion" Beefy