Austerity or what?

[Serial_Apologist]

[ I should perhaps have indicated that in this poem, 'Dipsychus', it is not the poet speaking : it is "The Spirit", viz Mephistopheles... ]

Ah yes, the mephylated spirit...

[french frank]

I think we may have to wait until after working hours for a response ...

[Flosshilde]

The problem, as I see it, is perceiving yourself as "an average punter". Locked into a mind-set which is self-defeating. If you don't want to work 70 to 80 hours a week, probably in your own business, and sacrifice a great deal to get what you want you probably don't need to bother. It's much easier to just resent others who do. Victimology 101.

Ah yes, all those self-employed nurses working in their own health-care business, & teachers all working as private tutors, & self-employed rubbish collectors. Tell me, how would that work?

Or even a "fly in/fly out miner" - I can see how being a self-employed miner might have worked in the gold rush in California in the 1890's, but how does it work in the 21st century?

I think we may have to wait until after working hours for a response ...

Or until he (she?) has returned from the bush

[Serial_Apologist]

Bush came to shove..........

[teamsaint]

Another myth, of course, is all those self employed people who we are told "work 70 to 80" hours a week to "get what they want".

And yes, I was self employed for 20 years.

Oh, and the pensions "Industry" (ha ha, a misnomer if I ever heard one) is a racket , end of.

[Flosshilde]

work 70 to 80 hours a week, probably in your own business, and sacrifice a great deal to get what you want

Obviously you don't want a life ... or any sort of relationship with a partner, children, or society in general. Just your own selfish 'wants'.

[Tarantella]

Obviously you don't want a life ... or any sort of relationship with a partner, children, or society in general. Just your own selfish 'wants'.

"Wants" on behalf of family, actually. All my sons work those hours, or somewhere close to them, to keep themselves and their families in a high standard of living. That way they don't have to moan all about "the system" either!! They're prepared to work long hours, just as my husband and I did, and I'm proud of them - ably supported by excellent, strong partners with a huge work ethic also. Their peer group also works those kinds of hours but they also have time to spend with each other from time to time. They should all retire comfortably, unless something goes amiss - but that can happen to anybody. Then they'll get a very good inheritance. In short, they'll be the kind of people you hate.

And to correct mis-perceptions in case all of you are wedded to stereotypes - one of my sons is an internationally awarded, self-employed winemaker who reads Tolstoy and Proust. This latter when he's travelling or during a long vintage when the winery works 24/7. Don't confuse poverty with some kind of misguided nobility. The morality of society moves in a vertical direction, not horizontally.

[french frank]

"Wants" on behalf of family, actually. All my sons work those hours, or somewhere close to them, to keep themselves and their families in a high standard of living. That way they don't have to moan all about "the system" either!! They're prepared to work long hours, just as my husband and I did, and I'm proud of them - ably supported by excellent, strong partners with a huge work ethic also. Their peer group also works those kinds of hours but they also have time to spend with each other from time to time. They should all retire comfortably, unless something goes amiss - but that can happen to anybody. Then they'll get a very good inheritance. In short, they'll be the kind of people you hate.

1. A "high" standard of living? Many people actually prefer quality of life.

2. Yes, they do sound quite hateable: not because they want and have things that others haven't got, but because - in your description, anyway - there appears to be no thought for those who can't work and who are at the mercy of state provision. And those who work very hard in traditionally low paid jobs which serve the community, and will always be slower off the mark in getting their houses or building their savings.

3. But maybe they are more likeable than you make them sound?

[teamsaint]

I know, and have worked with a LOT of self employed people over a very long time, from those with modest earnings to really quite well off people with decent sized businesses.
Almost none, in fact none, have worked the 70 to 80 hours a week that gets bandied around , other than for relatively short periods, or perhaps a couple of years to get businesses going.
Sorry, but those numbers of hours worked are a myth, and one perpetuated by people who WANT us all working all the hours god sends, since it stops all that pesky thinking going on.
take one day a week off, and that makes around 14 hours a day. It doesn't happen much at all.

[Tarantella]

1. A "high" standard of living? Many people actually prefer quality of life.

2. Yes, they do sound quite hateable: not because they want and have things that others haven't got, but because - in your description, anyway - there appears to be no thought for those who can't work and who are at the mercy of state provision. And those who work very hard in traditionally low paid jobs which serve the community, and will always be slower off the mark in getting their houses or building their savings.

3. But maybe they are more likeable than you make them sound?

Ah, the dreaded green-eyed monster!!

[Tarantella]

I know, and have worked with a LOT of self employed people over a very long time, from those with modest earnings to really quite well off people with decent sized businesses.
Almost none, in fact none, have worked the 70 to 80 hours a week that gets bandied around , other than for relatively short periods, or perhaps a couple of years to get businesses going.
Sorry, but those numbers of hours worked are a myth, and one perpetuated by people who WANT us all working all the hours god sends, since it stops all that pesky thinking going on.
take one day a week off, and that makes around 14 hours a day. It doesn't happen much at all.

Then you obviously don't know much. The physical demands of being on the job then the endless hours of paperwork soon racks up those hours. But I don't think you know at all. I'm wasting my time here, but I did think it was a discussion worth having. Trying to break through prejudice and resentment isn't easy. My husband ran a huge intensive agricultural business and he worked 7 days a week for 23 years; 7 days a week, not 6. Now we can afford to live in Europe for extended periods of time and enjoy business class travel. We both deserve it, and our sons have followed suit and now have their own businesses (except for one who is working in our national parliament, very very long hours).

There's no such thing as a free lunch. I'd suggest to all these people here that if they're not satisfied with the system, then 1) run for parliament and make some changes yourself, 2) try something entrepreneurial and work like hell to make it successful or 3) move out of Britain to a country where there are better opportunities. Don't sit down and cry about the system and feel sorry for yourselves!! I think you'll find more than a dozen reasons why you shouldn't listen to a word I've said, in which case you make way for those of us who want to be successful and get ahead. There's no substitute for very very hard work.

[amateur51]

Then you obviously don't know much. The physical demands of being on the job then the endless hours of paperwork soon racks up those hours. But I don't think you know at all. I'm wasting my time here, but I did think it was a discussion worth having. Trying to break through prejudice and resentment isn't easy. My husband ran a huge intensive agricultural business and he worked 7 days a week for 23 years; 7 days a week, not 6. Now we can afford to live in Europe for extended periods of time and enjoy business class travel. We both deserve it, and our sons have followed suit and now have their own businesses (except for one who is working in our national parliament, very very long hours).

There's no such thing as a free lunch. I'd suggest to all these people here that if they're not satisfied with the system, then 1) run for parliament and make some changes yourself, 2) try something entrepreneurial and work like hell to make it successful or 3) move out of Britain to a country where there are better opportunities. Don't sit down and cry about the system and feel sorry for yourselves!! I think you'll find more than a dozen reasons why you shouldn't listen to a word I've said, in which case you make way for those of us who want to be successful and get ahead. There's no substitute for very very hard work.

Is this Barry Humphries trying out a new schtick?

[Flosshilde]

My husband ran a huge intensive agricultural business and he worked 7 days a week for 23 years; 7 days a week, not 6.

I'm surprised you managed to have any children, given how many hours you say you both worked.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

No, & I'm not looking for one (although I do buy the reduced sandwiches in the Co-op). I, & many 'hard-working' people like me, paid into state & employment pension funds for over 40 years (doing work which was aimed at helping other people, not making as much money for myself as possible so that I could fly business class - what an ambition!). I do expect a reasonable return for those payments.

[vinteuil]

And to correct mis-perceptions in case all of you are wedded to stereotypes - one of my sons is an internationally awarded, self-employed winemaker who reads Tolstoy .

... perhaps you and he might like to re-read 'The Death of Ivan Ilyich' and have a little think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Ivan_Ilyich

[eighthobstruction]

Trying to break through prejudice and resentment isn't easy............

.............. Don't sit down and cry about the system and feel sorry for yourselves!!

....There was me thinking you were a crazy, mixed up, malcontented kid.....and it pans out you are a pious, arrogant, preening adult mother....proud, gleeming, iridescent in the morning sun of many continents....

....Actually T if you read more than just taking snatches, I think you would find (you won't, because you will not look) that mostly the comments and concepts etc on this board are altruistic rather than egregiously self serving....worring about the younger generations having to navigate the cut and thrust of a world stacked against them. Your peacock strutting (all the more strange for being a peahen)....and the procession of your [time poor] chicks....makes me wonder if you realise who made your clothes, TV, Computer, Kitchen appliances, Car, Aeroplane for holidays,etc etc........it was hard work <but not yours>.....(you know that sound that peacocks make....ooooo too piercing man....Dayo)

....oh dear i've been a bit ad hominem....