The Eternal Breakfast Debate in a New Place

[doversoul1]

DS, it gives the erroneous (IMO) view that the piece was given an English title by its composer, and falsely perpetuates a little Englander vision of the world which, surely, we should be trying to dispel. Of all nationalities, a Frenchman is probably the least likely to commit such a sacrilege (Golliwog's Cakewalk notwithstanding)!

That does seem to me a rather low opinion of listeners. I’d expect most listeners assume it is a translation. But let’s not argue. I agree with you that almost everything about Breakfast has become annoying in one way or other. I’ve long given it up. Very sad.

[Panjandrum]

That does seem to me a rather low opinion of listeners. I’d expect most listeners assume it is a translation. But let’s not argue. I agree with you that almost everything about Breakfast has become annoying in one way or other. I’ve long given it up. Very sad.

Somewhat off topic, but to me it's akin to whether you like your foreign film overdubbed, or with subtitles. I know which I prefer.

[gurnemanz]

Does SM-P have such a low opinion of listeners not even possessing basic GCSE French that she has to translate "Jardins dans la Pluie" for us? I have no objection to translations of more abstruse languages, but surely we should be given the titles in the original tongue.

I taught modern languages at school and FE before retiring a couple of years ago and would dearly like to be able to agree with you. Alas, SM-P's low opinion is fully justified. Many students that actually get as far as GCSE cannot be relied upon to have even a basic facility with the language. The requirement to optimise league table standings is uppermost in teachers' priorities, so students are frequently taught to pass the exam rather than have usable skills. My daughter got an A grade at French GCSE but after five years of study was unable to use the language in any practical way. Now aged thirty she claims to have forgotten everything.

[Paul Sherratt]

Translations absolutely should be provided by broadcasters. Every little helps .. I wonder if members have noticed the language skills of this 21 year old Italian footballer, Mario Balotelli ? http://www.soccacritics.com/wp-conte...li1790053c.jpg

[doversoul1]

Somewhat off topic, but to me it's akin to whether you like your foreign film overdubbed, or with subtitles. I know which I prefer.

Subtitles have many pitfalls Besides it’s out of question on the radio. But I must admit that some of Kurosawa’s films made much better sense by reading English subtitles (not sure what this implies to)

[french frank]

I taught modern languages at school and FE before retiring a couple of years ago and would dearly like to be able to agree with you. Alas, SM-P's low opinion is fully justified.

The trick is, you give the title in English first. You then give it in French/Italian/German to be more definite in case there's a query as to which work is being described.

If you give it in the original language first, and then in English, it sounds as if you're assuming people don't understand - which is irritating if they do.

[Ferretfancy]

Subtitles have many pitfalls Besides it’s out of question on the radio. But I must admit that some of Kurosawa’s films made much better sense by reading English subtitles (not sure what this implies to)

Doversoul

You're quite right about the perils of subtitles, although postsynching and dubbing can work well. It does need great care in the choice of voices, and they are often recorded in a completely different acoustic detracts from any sense of sense of perspective in the sound.
Years ago I saw one of the Doctor films on German TV. Bizarrely, the producers had given Dirk Bogarde a basso profundo voice instead of his usual light tenor, with ludicrous results. Some top performers insist in their contracts that the actors who are going to dub them into foreign languages are submitted for approval.

The type of vocal acting is also crucial. A long time ago, the BBC bought a very interesting German TV series based on the lives of a family throughout the 20th Century. One of my colleagues did the remix, but everybody was puzzled by the fact that it simply failed to convince. The problem was that the producers had brought in a group of very good actors from radio drama, and they used their voices as if they were invisible in a radio play.Coupled to the images of the characters on screen it was a complete mismatch, in spite of the care taken in the balance.

No, for all its faults subtitling is less of a gamble.

[doversoul1]

Ferret
Thank you for the interesting insight. I think subtitling and dubbing are much undervalued arts. Only because they are not ‘original’, people don’t appreciate the work that involves in.

I suppose the radio equivalent to subtitling is to present both. It is interesting though, to see that some titles have settled in English and some in the original language. I wonder what are the decisive factors.

[cloughie]

On topic, just about, but a minor aside - whilst translation of languages is necessary I can never understand the reasoning behind translation of many proper nouns, particularly place names - this has changed over the years, we no longer talk of Peking, Bombay, Ceylon but shouln't the French talk of London, not Londres, of Britain, not Bretagne and shouldn't we pronounce Paris with a silent 's' and should it be 'Roma', and is Vienna 'Wien' and how is it pronounced (Vean or Vee-en)which leads naturally to orchestra names - is it Orchestre Symphonique de Montreal or Montreal Symphony Orchestra -the last example presumably either Montreal being bilingual.

[doversoul1]

They are not translations. They were (mostly) transcriptions of how people first heard those names. You (one) may be able to pronounce a name correctly but it will not sound right if it is put into a speech in English (or the other way round) because different languages use a physically different sound production method. You can say Paris without s but that won’t sound anything like French.

Obviously we should make an effort but I don’t think it should be made into an issue. I don’t think it bothers Mitsuko Uchida that her name sounds like someone else’s or the fact that it’s wrong way round.

[Roehre]

Years ago I saw one of the Doctor films on German TV. Bizarrely, the producers had given Dirk Bogarde a basso profundo voice instead of his usual light tenor, with ludicrous results.

Here you are in a position that you know an actor's voice (as here Bogarde's). Those used to postsynching (Nachsynchronisation) don't know his real voice, and as many times an actor is synched with the same voice, that voice is Bogarde's voice is the German language area in central Europe.

The French and Italians too use postsynch frequently, and it is a very interesting experience e.g. in Switzerland to switch TV-channels between the different languages, hearing a German actor( a detective e.g.) speak Hochdeutsch (standard German) on the German TV, Schwytzertüütsch (Swiss German dialect) on the Swiss German TV, French on the Swiss French channel and Italian on the Swiss italian one .

The English postsynch of Heimat IMO was a disaster. It is good to know that the first part is in a strong German Hunsrück dialect, which even in Germany sometimes is subtitled (especially the episodes situated in the immediate post-Great War years) .

No, for all its faults subtitling is less of a gamble.

Fully agreed. This also robs us from hearing another language been (properly) spoken, and listening to it plus reading subtitles does strengthen one's feeling for another language as words start to be recognized.
I don't like voice-overs either, such as used in interview with a foreign politicians or scientists.

[Bax-of-Delights]

Your Call today:

SM-P: "Today we're hearing from a taxi driver who likes classical music."

Now, say that again but transposing "taxi driver" for "vicar" or "doctor" or "teacher" and you'll realise how patronising the first statement was.

[Ferretfancy]

Here you are in a position that you know an actor's voice (as here Bogarde's). Those used to postsynching (Nachsynchronisation) don't know his real voice, and as many times an actor is synched with the same voice, that voice is Bogarde's voice is the German language area in central Europe.

The French and Italians too use postsynch frequently, and it is a very interesting experience e.g. in Switzerland to switch TV-channels between the different languages, hearing a German actor( a detective e.g.) speak Hochdeutsch (standard German) on the German TV, Schwytzertüütsch (Swiss German dialect) on the Swiss German TV, French on the Swiss French channel and Italian on the Swiss italian one .

The English postsynch of Heimat IMO was a disaster. It is good to know that the first part is in a strong German Hunsrück dialect, which even in Germany sometimes is subtitled (especially the episodes situated in the immediate post-Great War years) .



Fully agreed. This also robs us from hearing another language been (properly) spoken, and listening to it plus reading subtitles does strengthen one's feeling for another language as words start to be recognized.
I don't like voice-overs either, such as used in interview with a foreign politicians or scientists.

Roehre,

Thanks for that. Italian films by directors like Fellini and Visconti used to be very badly dubbed in their original Italian versions, simply because these directors hired international performers who spoke
their own languages on set. Fellini in particular was rather slipshod in his use of sound, but never mind, his films are marvellous.

Things are much better now. A few years ago I enjoyed a Christmas in Rome, and watched Some Like it Hot in a dubbed Italian version which was very entertaining with beautifully chosen performers.
Marilyn's songs were kept in the original English, but all the dialogue was brilliantly post-synched, they even managed to lift Tony Curtis's " mmms -mm! " from the original and even the famous Cary Grant send up worked. It shows how good this can be, but it must have involved a huge amount of work.!

[kernelbogey]

[..] Fellini in particular was rather slipshod in his use of sound, but never mind, his films are marvellous.[...]

Ferret - I recently learned that Fellini's actors in Ottemezzo (8.5!) spoke whatever they wanted on set and the words he wanted were dubbed in (as is usual in Italian films) so even the Italian words don't match the lips! You can see this clearly if you watch the long speech by the guy with glasses (sorry can't remember his name) sitting in the car talking to the Mastroianni character near the end of the movie. (Don't know if this applies to other F movies.)

Also, I thought that when I watched Heimat, I heard it in German. Was there a second broadcast with the original German soundtrack?

[Paul N]

Your Call today:

SM-P: "Today we're hearing from a taxi driver who likes classical music."

Now, say that again but transposing "taxi driver" for "vicar" or "doctor" or "teacher" and you'll realise how patronising the first statement was.

Or say it even as it actually was:

"Well, Barry .... drives a London taxi cab and he wrote to us for Your Call, morning Barry..."

Not patronising at all.