Should classical music be a more forgiving world than other forms of culture ?

[MrGongGong]

I do find the suggestion that this is a must buy , pretty insensitive and inappropriate . I very much doubt that a Gary Glitter new album would be treated in the same way !

I do think this says something about the ways in which different musical cultures are regarded.....

[Mr Pee]

I do find the suggestion that this is a must buy , pretty insensitive and inappropriate . I very much doubt that a Gary Glitter new album would be treated in the same way !

[Barbirollians]

Perhaps Mr King can put his share of the royalties towards any help his victims need ?

[ahinton]

I was trying to draw attention to the apparent rehabilitation by Radio 3 of a convicted offender against children as distinct from those in popular culture .

I am away that Mr King pleaded not guilty but he was convicted of offences involving more than one boy , the youngest was 12 and he was sentenced to three years and nine months .

I do find the suggestion that this is a must buy , pretty insensitive and inappropriate . I very much doubt that a Gary Glitter new album would be treated in the same way !

I'm afraid that I cannot agree. The album's contents are what they are and would have been no better or worse had Mr King not been convicted of those offences in the past. Again, I am by no means defending Mr King's behavior as charged and of which he was convicted and served time but, uncomfortable as it may be for some, trying to draw together an artist's behaviour and his artistic products and achievements as though they both are and should be thought of as somehow inseparable and unavoidably interdependent quite simply fails to stand up to scientific scrutiny, to say nothing of the question of tarring a convicted criminal who's served his/her sentence with his offences indefinitely thereafter (which will in any case remain a private matter for Mr King's conscience for as long as it continues to be so).

[ahinton]

Perhaps Mr King can put his share of the royalties towards any help his victims need ?

If he did so and were to be seen to do so, the public's view of him would surely be a little more sympathetic.

[Mary Chambers]

One of the very best and most memorable concerts I have ever been to in my quite long concert-going life was given by the King's Consort with Robert King. I don't wish now that I hadn't been to it. I'm judging music, not musicians.

[Petrushka]

I was trying to draw attention to the apparent rehabilitation by Radio 3 of a convicted offender against children as distinct from those in popular culture .

I am away that Mr King pleaded not guilty but he was convicted of offences involving more than one boy , the youngest was 12 and he was sentenced to three years and nine months .

I do find the suggestion that this is a must buy , pretty insensitive and inappropriate . I very much doubt that a Gary Glitter new album would be treated in the same way !

It is not for R3 to 'rehabilitate' any one; they are judging this newly issued CD on musical merits alone. The question of double standards, on the other hand, is a valid one and it would be interesting to have more views on that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I find the use of the word "forgiving" interesting here: as far as Robert King is concerned, only those boys (and thier families and friends) against whom he offended have any right to "forgive" him.

And, moving aside from this individual, in order to deserve forgiveness, there has to be a show of genuine remorse and determination not to re-offend. I do not know whether RK has done this (his denial of the charges at his trial, and his calling his accusers "liars" doesn't bode well), but Jonathan King and Paul Gadd certainly have not done so, and continue to deny their offenses: in these circumstances, it would certainly be repellent for the BBC to give them any sort of remunerated publicity. It would be the same, I hope, for anyone with such a conviction who also denied their guilt.

But, if there were a case where an offender did acknowledge his guilt to himself and to others, who showed and felt genuine remorse for and who actively sought to atone for his offence, then never mind "Classical music" - there needs, I believe, to be a feeling throughout society that we should do what we can (which, heaven only knows, may not be much), not only to help prevent a re-offense, but also to help everyone [come to terms] with his actions.

EDIT: "Come to terms" is pathetic - I wanted to avoid the New-Agey glib expression "move on". I don't think "come to terms" is much better, but in such cases, it's almost impossible to avoid glibness. Apologies.

[Mr Pee]

to say nothing of the question of tarring a convicted criminal who's served his/her sentence with his offences indefinitely thereafter (which will in any case remain a private matter for Mr King's conscience for as long as it continues to be so).

And the impact of his offences will no doubt remain with his victims

indefinitely thereafter

I do not see how you can say this is in any way a private matter for Mr King when he has affected the lives of many others, not just the victims themselves, but their families as well.

I wonder how they will react when hearing that a CD by their attacker is a "must buy"?

[Lateralthinking1]

ahinton, I think you misunderstand. The objective is not that the one fewer among any tally will be me. It will be the individual who decided on the programme's content, McGregor or not. This is not a question of seeking to bar anyone from "all professional activity". It is to ensure that the BBC is decent, responsible and accountable to those who decide on its funding and those who fund it. No doubt it considers that it can get away with expressing its chagrin at being lambasted on Savile by being controversial in obscure places. Perhaps a tribute to Myra Hindley on The Essay in Spring? Fortunately, those who have noted the editorial decisions made this morning have brought the matter to the attention of a wider audience. We will now take steps accordingly.

You can flim-flam all you like about whether we should now accept court decisions as accurate (the law is the law) or whether an individual was officially employed by the BBC when he was producing prime time television (licence payers still paid for him) or the fact that six decades are different from 15 years (absolutely irrelevant in terms of impacts) or that in your world being anti-semitic or anti-Soviet might be the equivalent to King's convictions (it isn't although the former is highly objectionable). I have no time for apologists in the matter. I am just pleased that the programme has been brought to our attention. Do enjoy it for as long as it continues. Hopefully, that won't be long. A once good enough programme will have to end because of producers' crass stupidity.

[MrGongGong]

One of the very best and most memorable concerts I have ever been to in my quite long concert-going life was given by the King's Consort with Robert King. I don't wish now that I hadn't been to it. I'm judging music, not musicians.

Do you not feel a slight unease ?
which is NOT to say that you are wrong in having good memories
but
I would find it difficult NOT to connect the two

I guess it depends on whether the music is used to "normalise" the behaviour
as was the case with the Suharto regime in Indonesia .... "how can we be bad when we have such beautiful art and music ? "

one question does relate to how long it takes for art to become separate from its creator .......... ?
(a discussion that would include Caravaggio as well as Ian Stuart Donaldson etc etc )

[Mary Chambers]

Do you not feel a slight unease ?
which is NOT to say that you are wrong in having good memories
but
I would find it difficult NOT to connect the two

I probably would now, though it wouldn't prevent me from going to a concert. At the time I knew nothing about him except musically. (It was well before his conviction.) It's still a very happy memory and very vivid. .

[ahinton]

And the impact of his offences will no doubt remain with his victims

No doubt.

I do not see how you can say this is in any way a private matter for Mr King when he has affected the lives of many others, not just the victims themselves, but their families as well.

That's not what I said; the "private matter" is purely one of how Mr King himself will deal with the legacy of his past actions and, as I hoped to have made clear, I am not here to undermine the gravity of, letg alone defend, those actions of which he was convicted.

I wonder how they will react when hearing that a CD by their attacker is a "must buy"?

Either by taking no notice or in the same way as they would do about any convicted criminal whose criminality has directly and adversely affected them and who goes on to achieve any kind of public success following the completion of a prison sentence.

What would have Mr King do since his release? Nothing? Become a monk? Make sure that any future artistic projects in which he was to become involved would be guaranteed failures on artistic grounds? Or what?

[Lateralthinking1]

There is an extraordinary contrast between the damning condemnation (98%) of an author who is selling a book that alleges a late composer had syphilis and the 70% to 30% opinion that a living composer convicted of extensive child abuse should on balance be promoted by the BBC on a Saturday morning. The argument that the former is unproven and hence vile has no weight at all when something considerably more vile, and proven, is greeted with a shrug of the shoulders. Anyone might think that many contributors consider the idea that someone may have had syphilis to be more potentially damaging to an individual's reputation than a court decision that another had abused children. Delius had syphilis. It hasn't affected his reputation. The way Fenby helped him has a positive message. There is nothing positive in the BBC promoting King other than for a "man" who describes the children as liars. One thing is certain. This morning's programme guarantees that the Britten commemoration will be scrutinised for moral context.

[MrGongGong]

This IS a very difficult area indeed and affects far too many of us personally

It is not for R3 to 'rehabilitate' any one; they are judging this newly issued CD on musical merits alone. The question of double standards, on the other hand, is a valid one and it would be interesting to have more views on that.

I would add that (with reference to Musicking on another thread) "music" doesn't just refer to sonic phenomena
what other things ARE part of the music and in what balance are matters of (interesting IMV) debate.