SYP-Sun

[Guest]

What a shame that the lefties are using this tragedy to write their usual knee-jerks to anything they think can be used to knock the police/tories/authority/any newspaper they don't agree with, etc. etc..

But how good, also, to see some more measured responses from people whose posts are, as usual, worth reading.

[Nick Armstrong]

the lefties

Do people still use that phrase today without irony?!

[Serial_Apologist]

What a shame that the lefties are using this tragedy to write their usual knee-jerks to anything they think can be used to knock the police/tories/authority/any newspaper they don't agree with, etc. etc..

Whereas a police baton is so much more effective...

[ahinton]

What a shame that the lefties are using this tragedy to write their usual knee-jerks to anything they think can be used to knock the police/tories/authority/any newspaper they don't agree with, etc. etc..

But how good, also, to see some more measured responses from people whose posts are, as usual, worth reading.

Never mind the "lefties" - or even the fact that you seek to make some kind of personal political capital out of this issue along the lines of "lefties" and "righties" and those in between; this is a matter that may shake the nation to pieces - not this week or next month or the year after that necessarily, but eventually and inevitably, because the most serious aspect of it is that successive governments and the judiciary have all stood by - some members of each consciously and wilfully - and ensured that nothing would happen in the now at last seemingly forlorn hope that no one would ever manage to bring it successfully and credibly to the surface. It's all too late now. Who knows what other rafts of injustice might emerge as a consequence of this? Who would trust any Brit after it's all over in a few hundred years' time (if ever it is)?

[Serial_Apologist]

Never mind the "lefties" - or even the fact that you seek to make some kind of personal political capital out of this issue along the lines of "lefties" and "righties" and those in between; this is a matter that may shake the nation to pieces - not this week or next month or the year after that necessarily, but eventually and inevitably, because the most serious aspect of it is that successive governments and the judiciary have all stood by - some members of each consciously and wilfully - and ensured that nothing would happen in the now at last seemingly forlorn hope that no one would ever manage to bring it successfully and credibly to the surface. It's all too late now. Who knows what other rafts of injustice might emerge as a consequence of this? Who would trust any Brit after it's all over in a few hundred years' time (if ever it is)?

It's impossible not to make political capital out of this issue, because the whole point of the suppression was to make political capital out of it... and in that, they (newspapers, politicians, police, the whole of the establishment in fact)'ve been succeeding in hoodwinking the British public as a whole for a lot longer than 23 years.

[Simon]

#23 I thought somebody would soon come along and illustrate the point that I had made... thanks.

#24 Relax, AH. That there are some less than honest cops around - and some dodgy members of all areas of society for that matter - is a given. I have to work with many of them on a regular basis: most I can trust, some I can't.

It probably has always been like this, and probably will be for a long time yet. No worse here, in some ways, than elsewhere - and a sight better here than in some places, I can tell you! Different parts of the world have different ways of doing business, but there's generally some corruption somewhere along the line.

Overall, the civil service at the basic level in the UK is generally honest and reliable. But there has certainly been a CYA ethos creeping in more and more over the last, say 15 years, I'd say. Fault of lawyers, largely.

[Serial_Apologist]

#23 I thought somebody would soon come along and illustrate the point that I had made... thanks.

#24 Relax, AH. That there are some less than honest cops around - and some dodgy members of all areas of society for that matter - is a given. I have to work with many of them on a regular basis: most I can trust, some I can't.

It probably has always been like this, and probably will be for a long time yet. No worse here, in some ways, than elsewhere - and a sight better here than in some places, I can tell you! Different parts of the world have different ways of doing business, but there's generally some corruption somewhere along the line.

Overall, the civil service at the basic level in the UK is generally honest and reliable. But there has certainly been a CYA ethos creeping in more and more over the last, say 15 years, I'd say. Fault of lawyers, largely.

But surely the whole point is that when misdeeds emanate from those echelons of society given the ultimate responsibility, and paid accordingly, of upholding the standards that they, as society's supposed guardians, demand of everyone else, and then abuse these responsibilities and powers on the scale of magnitude here being revealed, this is morally and ethically far far worse than a bit of petty corruption being undertaken lower down in the ranks? One would have to be some kind of Marxist or anarchist to think otherwise.

[mangerton]

It probably has always been like this, and probably will be for a long time yet. No worse here, in some ways, than elsewhere - and a sight better here than in some places, I can tell you!

So that's all right then?

[Simon]

I'd put it a sssss-lightly different way: 'human beings in general are likely to try to cover up their mistakes if they can and if they think that will get away with it. One way of doing this is to divert blame elsewhere.'

One expects higher standards from those in positions of responsibility - or authority - because there are usually certain privileges that go with those positions.

Couldn't agree more. But you don't always get them, which is my point, and which I don't consider all that surprising.

[french frank]

Couldn't agree more. But you don't always get them, which is my point, and which I don't consider all that surprising.

Let's agree then that we're not surprised ... or complacent.

[Simon]

Let's agree then that we're not surprised ... or complacent.

Exactly. But the expression of lack of surprise is not necessarily indicative of complacency. A point that AH will now, perhaps, accept.

[french frank]

Exactly. But the expression of lack of surprise is not necessarily indicative of complacency. A point that AH will now, perhaps, accept.

Not necessarily, no. But "Relax, AH. That there are some less than honest cops around - and some dodgy members of all areas of society for that matter - is a given. [...] It probably has always been like this, and probably will be for a long time yet. No worse here, in some ways, than elsewhere ..." sounds complacent because it suggests no one should be angry about what has happened, or make a fuss. I mean, okay, but it's no worse here than elsewhere, is it?

That and your reaction that all this is the knee-jerk reaction of lefties, I mean it sounds complacent to other people, even if you most certainly would never, ever condone or be complacent about such corrupt actions.

[ahinton]

Exactly. But the expression of lack of surprise is not necessarily indicative of complacency. A point that AH will now, perhaps, accept.

I'm afraid that I will not because I cannot. The surprise is not so much in what the police and other emergency services did or failed to do at the time or how and to what extent they sought to cover up the shortcomings of their actions and inactions but in the the sheer scale of the entire history of the incident and what followed it and in the fact that the inquests and inquiries, Parliament and the judiciary all contrived to ensure that all of this would remain under wraps until now - and, let's face it, 23+ years is a very long time for that, especially given that there have been changes of government and even more changes of government policy as well as personnel in all the various areas involved in the matter itself and its mishandling during that time.

[ahinton]

Not necessarily, no. But "Relax, AH. That there are some less than honest cops around - and some dodgy members of all areas of society for that matter - is a given. [...] It probably has always been like this, and probably will be for a long time yet. No worse here, in some ways, than elsewhere ..." sounds complacent because it suggests no one should be angry about what has happened, or make a fuss. I mean, okay, but it's no worse here than elsewhere, is it?

That and your reaction that all this is the knee-jerk reaction of lefties, I mean it sounds complacent to other people, even if you most certainly would never, ever condone or be complacent about such corrupt actions.

Agreed - and let us never forget that not a mere handful but many thousands of people in various areas of professional "expertise" have been involved in the incident, its aftermath and its subsequent mishandling over almost a quarter century and almost all of those will have been paid handsomely out of the public purse to which it should also be remembered that the victims of the incident and their friends and families have contributed just as have the rest of us.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

That and your reaction that all this is the knee-jerk reaction of lefties, I mean it sounds complacent to other people, even if you most certainly would never, ever condone or be complacent about such corrupt actions.

This is very strange. First it's all huff and puff about MacKenzie, with no mention of the police, now it's Simon for sounding complacent.

Perhaps our principal focus should be on the police (and the police federation?) as I first suggested?