(Formerly) CE from York

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  • paul duggan2

    Originally posted by Magnificat View Post
    paul duggan2

    This all goes back to my post number 32.

    I was annoyed by Contre Bombarde who seemed to think that I was against girls' choirs because they were not traditional and said that this sort of view was of no concern to cathedral musicians because it is solely they who are keeping the tradition of cathedral music alive not me.

    Since I and many other enthusiasts of cathedral music had just been involved in a major and very successful fund raising event at St Albans in order to help maintain the choral tradition in perpetuity there ( girls and boys by the way ) I was fuming at CB's arrogance.

    I came back at him by suggesting that cathedral music and the tradition of boys top lines was too important to be left to the professionals and I was convinced they would get shot of boys as soon as possible if they could mainly because the difficulties with recruitment. I also said that as long as boys top lines remained any DoM who failed to recruit in acceptable numbers should be fired but, of course, they would not be and there was no danger of them losing their job for life if they wanted to keep it. I was writing generally. having a go at CB, and had no specific cathedral or DoM in my mind.

    What I am questioning is whether DoMs are doing all they can to recruit boys.

    There is an interview with the very successful Andy Lumsden of Winchester in the latest edition of Cathedral Music magazine where he states that recruitment is difficult even there.

    Every time I read simlilar articles it is always the same story and it is always commented upon at the AGMs of The Choir Schools Association.

    The usual method of recruiting for cathedral choirs which, for as long as I cam remember. has been yearly voice trials with tweaks to this system such as the DoM advertising that he /she will see interested boys at any time and more recently the 'be a chorister for a day' innovation that has been set up.

    If these methods are not pulling in enough recruits then surely it is time for new thinking and I have likened chorister recruitment with marketing generally where the major rule is that if the customer isn't coming to you then you have to go to him.

    I have been suggesting, as a result, that if voice trials and membership of a first rate choir school are not doing the job of attracting potential choristers as well as using these methods DoMs must be more pro- active and get out and around all the schools in their area as well as the community generally and effectively try to sell their product as it were. I have pointed out that cathedrals without choir schools have to do this anyway as do parish churches but it obviously requires a lot more effort on the part of any DoM, extra effort, in fact, that a Dean & Chapter which wishes to and is serious about running a traditional choir of boys and men in modern times should expect and that no DoM should be able to dispense with a boys top line until and unless everything possible has been tried to ensure that it continues.

    As I have said the Flosshilde I would not expect a D&C to dismiss any DoM who tried every avenue in this respect and failed but, of course, that is and should be their prerogative as it would be for any employer. It is up to any employee to justify his/her actions in doing any job.

    VCC
    Maybe this is one of the reasons why you don't run, and will never run or have anything to do with the running of a cathedral choir.

    Comment

    • french frank
      Administrator/Moderator
      • Feb 2007
      • 30249

      'O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us...'
      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

      Comment

      • Simon Biazeck

        '... To see oursels as ithers see us!
        It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
        An' foolish notion:
        What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
        An' ev'n devotion!'

        Aye, true enough! :rolleyes:

        Comment

        • Vile Consort
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 696

          Somebody go and fetch Magnificat a new spade. He seems to be rapidly wearing out the one he's got.

          Comment

          • Double Diapason

            Originally posted by paul duggan2 View Post
            Maybe this is one of the reasons why you don't run, and will never run or have anything to do with the running of a cathedral choir.
            As someone who has ran a parish church choir singing to cathedral standard I think VCC is spot on. Some of the biggest names in the most high profile places have complained about the difficulties of recruitment, not just Andy Lumsden. I know for a fact that many cathedral musicians have a "they should come to me" attitude. This may explain the difficulties in recruitment! I know of a cathedral choir which completely disappeared recently due to no effective recruitment happening for several years. The DoM WAS sacked! They have since employed someone else who is recruiting a new choir. You can bet your life he will not achieve it by sitting there waiting for the boys/girls & adults to turn up!!
            Paul, please explain exactly why VCC is so wrong!

            Comment

            • Double Diapason

              Originally posted by orbis factor View Post
              Perhaps you're entering into a fantasy world of scenarios in cathedral music that simply don't exist?
              As per my last post its not that fantastical!

              Comment

              • orbis factor

                Originally posted by Double Diapason View Post
                As per my last post its not that fantastical!
                Ok. Details please..



                [Ed: I've deleted the posts which follow while I think about them. Please, no more on that subject.]

                ff
                Last edited by french frank; 19-06-12, 23:27.

                Comment

                • Mr Stoat

                  Originally posted by DracoM View Post
                  < There is no need for congregations to know which set is singing >

                  Sorry, I think that is arrogant. Who are you to tell your congregation what is important to them in attending a Minster service?

                  You will know what we think it is good for you to know? Erm...............???

                  Er - should one not attend a service to worship, irrespective of who is singing?

                  Comment

                  • MrGongGong
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 18357

                    Originally posted by Mr Stoat View Post
                    Er - should one not attend a service to worship, irrespective of who is singing?
                    sorry to tell you
                    but like the tooth fairy and father christmas , god doesn't exist
                    but Bach is wonderful don't you think

                    Comment

                    • Flosshilde
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 7988

                      That may be so, Mr GG, but I would assume that anyone going to a church service would go because they believe in god & want to praise him, or pray, or whatever, & not because they want to attend a musical performance.

                      But I do find it extraordinarly bizzarre that people should get so worked up over who sings, especially when they have indicated that they can't tell the difference. I wonder what they think of women vicars?

                      Comment

                      • MrGongGong
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 18357

                        Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post
                        That may be so, Mr GG, but I would assume that anyone going to a church service would go because they believe in god & want to praise him, or pray, or whatever, & not because they want to attend a musical performance.

                        But I do find it extraordinarly bizzarre that people should get so worked up over who sings, especially when they have indicated that they can't tell the difference. I wonder what they think of women vicars?
                        Maybe so
                        I love the music though
                        when I was a chorister I feel it was a weekly performance, nothing wrong with that IMV
                        I don't really think I need to believe in a load of other stuff (same goes for the nonsense in much "programme" music as well IMV)............ women vicars ? whatever next , TA was never the same after Janet

                        Comment

                        • Magnificat

                          Roger,

                          Could it be because they feel that there is no real career structure in cathedral music?

                          It's OK if you want to remain an assistant but to become a DoM really requires being able to show that you can run a choir as well as play the organ and there are fewer opportunities to do this ( few parish churches having choirs of boys and men for example.). Also do cathedral DoMs provide enough of an apprenticeship opportunity to organ scholars who wish to be choir trainers as well.

                          Even then there is no guarantee you will be selected for the top job as these days it can just as easily be given to someone without any experience at all!

                          Whether you can get on in the profession seems to be pot luck.

                          I have no idea why people have left the world of cathedral music except that Bill Ives ( Magdalen College Oxford) said, if I remember rightly, that all the bureaucracy involved these days got in the way of having the relationship you need to have with the choristers and Adrian Lucas ( Worcester ) said that it was a job for a younger man. It is certainly much more demanding than it used to be as we have been discussing on this thread.

                          I don't necessarily believe that it is a bad thing to see people move on more than they used to whatever the reason as top cathedral posts have always been regarded as 'dead men' shoes and it would help if they started to lose that image.

                          VCC

                          Comment

                          • Magnificat

                            The above refers to Roger Judd's question at post 95

                            VCC

                            Comment

                            • Flosshilde
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 7988

                              Originally posted by Magnificat View Post
                              Roger,

                              Could it be because they feel that there is no real career structure in cathedral music?

                              It's OK if you want to remain an assistant but to become a DoM really requires being able to show that you can run a choir as well as play the organ and there are fewer opportunities to do this ( few parish churches having choirs of boys and men for example.). VCC
                              Magnificat's implication being that running a choir that has girls/women in it is meaningless/worthless, in terms of building up experience in managing a choir? that managing a choir with girls/women would be beneath him? (I don't think, considering the casual misogyny, that there is any doubt that magnificat is male).

                              Comment

                              • DracoM
                                Host
                                • Mar 2007
                                • 12960

                                < (I don't think, considering the casual misogyny, that there is any doubt that magnificat is male) >


                                The implication being that ALL men are casual misogynists? Hmm. Is that how we are meant to read that final parenthesis?
                                I suppose if you were looking to stir up enough ire to fuel a different thread, that would do it? Yes, on reflection, I can see it's quite a clever tactic.

                                Comment

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