(Formerly) CE from York

[MrGongGong]

But honestly, why is it not possible in any of these CE broadcasts for the BBC not to put everyone completely in the picture by announcing, in the case of this particular transmission, - Choral evensong today is from York Minster and will be sung by the girls and men of the cathedral choir?

Actually I would be most interested in these other things...............

1: What the singers had for breakfast ? (there's a brilliant set of sleeve notes to the Kontarsky ? recordings of Stockhausen's Klavierstück that goes into minute detail about what the pianist ate for breakfast, and how they spent hours trying to stop the piano stool creaking........)
2: Whether the adults in the choir go to the pub afterwards and if so do they drink honest Yorkshire ale or white wine spritzers ?
3: Whether the girls/boys in the choir listen to "popular" music and if so what's on the iPod ?
4: Whether the Minster knows that it is risking another "act of God" fire by allowing girls to sing Or is this just a ruse on the part of the BBC to try and breathe some life into the ailing Blue Peter ? (if you remember the whole "rose carving" episode of the 1970's ?)

and so on .......................

but carry on , as you were, it's all fascinating stuff indeed

[Vile Consort]

Actually I would be most interested in these other things...............

• Is the organist going to use any particularly exciting stops or stop combinations that we should listen out for?
• Which book is the office hymn being played from and - most important, this - is it being transposed?
• Are any stops on the organ currently out of use? Just out of tune, or more serious than that? Perhaps we could have the last couple of pages of the tuner's book read to us before the service to give us an added frisson from knowing what faults the organist is having to work around.
• Which parts of the anthem did the choir have most difficulty getting just right?
• Which psalter are they singing from?
• Is the organist doing his own page turns?
• What part of Devon does the lady who read the first lesson come from?
• Is the sun streaming in through the west window or is it a dull afternoon?
• Did any of the boys hobble in on a crutch, having suffered an injury on the sports field?
• Do the organ manuals have white keys with black sharps or something more interesting?

I was making a perfectly serious point about the beer expert who couldn't taste the difference between mild and bitter. We gave over listening to him when he sipped his beer and purported to tell us what combination of hops he could taste.

[paul duggan2]

[QUOTE=Magnificat;175697]

I have never called for a particular cathedral DoM to be sacked. But if a cathedral runs a boys choir then, generally and on the face of it, if a DoM fails to recruit enough boys he is not doing his job and anyone else not doing his job would no doubt be sacked so why should a cathedral organist not be sacked in these circumstances. At the very least he would have to persuade the Dean and Chapter that he has done everything possible to attract them but it appears that boys do not want to sing in cathedral choirs anymore.

VCC

At which cathedral(s) is this suggested non-recruitment happening?

[MrGongGong]

• Do the organ manuals have white keys with black sharps or something more interesting?

You mean like this ?

http://www.oddmusic.com/gallery/om25450.html

[Roger Judd]

Somewhere, way back in this thread, a worry was expressed about where future male altos, tenors and basses would come from if girls took over the top line. Broadening that topic somewhat, would writers to this forum care to ponder on this rather more pressing and alarming news. Recently a number Cathedrals sought to fill assistant organist positions. For some of these posts fewer than six applications were received. Those low numbers are, for me, terribly troubling. It is equally worrying that a number of fine 'cathedral' musicians are standing down to work in other spheres.
RJ

[subcontrabass]

Somewhere, way back in this thread, a worry was expressed about where future male altos, tenors and basses would come from if girls took over the top line. Broadening that topic somewhat, would writers to this forum care to ponder on this rather more pressing and alarming news. Recently a number Cathedrals sought to fill assistant organist positions. For some of these posts fewer than six applications were received. Those low numbers are, for me, terribly troubling. It is equally worrying that a number of fine 'cathedral' musicians are standing down to work in other spheres.
RJ

Numbers often fluctuate quite oddly. The year that I got an organ scholarship at Oxford there were twelve candidates in total for eleven awards. One did not turn up for the practical exam. I was the only candidate at the college that gave me a scholarship. My second choice college was chasing me as they had no candidate.

[Flosshilde]

Whenever I visit a 'Choir' thread (which is not often as I find all the music sounds the same, in terms of performance, & I'm not interested in the sermony stuff & readings) it seems to be bogged down in the boys v. girls debate - & most of the posts seem to be from Magnificat. Some of his/her posts seem a little disingenuous - ie those on the lines of 'I don't really mind which is singing & I can't tell the difference but it's terribly important for me to know which is singing & the BBC is being secretive in not telling me' & 'I'm not really prejudiced against girls singing but ...'. The one below, though, takes the biscuit - suggesting someone should be sacked because boys aren't interested in singing? What does she/he expect? for the DoM to go out & kidnap boys to make sure he (or possibly she) has a constant supply?

I have never called for a particular cathedral DoM to be sacked. But if a cathedral runs a boys choir then, generally and on the face of it, if a DoM fails to recruit enough boys he is not doing his job and anyone else not doing his job would no doubt be sacked so why should a cathedral organist not be sacked in these circumstances. At the very least he would have to persuade the Dean and Chapter that he has done everything possible to attract them but it appears that boys do not want to sing in cathedral choirs anymore.

VCC

[MrGongGong]

What does she/he expect? for the DoM to go out & kidnap boys to make sure he (or possibly she) has a constant supply?

In my day that's exactly what the DOM would do (are they aware of the other meaning of the acronym ? )

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The one below, though, takes the biscuit - suggesting someone should be sacked because boys aren't interested in singing? What does she/he expect? for the DoM to go out & kidnap boys to make sure he (or possibly she) has a constant supply?

No, but lots of boys do like singing. Convincing them that it's an OK thing to do it the issue here, and that is something a DoM needs to be equipped to do.

[Flosshilde]

Perhaps lots of boys do like singing, but do they enjoy singing church music regularly (& frequently), when there is lots more music that is perhaps rather more fun to sing, & ways of singing it that would take up rather less of their time? I would have thought that the issue is not convincing them that they might enjoy singing, but getting them (or their parents) to sign up to singing material in circumstances that is probably somewhat uncongenial to most boys.

Anyway, I won't get involved in a long discussion as I view this debate in the same way that I view most squabbles in the CofE - all rather meaningless & irrelevant in the long term (or even in the short term).

[Magnificat]

Whenever I visit a 'Choir' thread (which is not often as I find all the music sounds the same, in terms of performance, & I'm not interested in the sermony stuff & readings) it seems to be bogged down in the boys v. girls debate - & most of the posts seem to be from Magnificat. Some of his/her posts seem a little disingenuous - ie those on the lines of 'I don't really mind which is singing & I can't tell the difference but it's terribly important for me to know which is singing & the BBC is being secretive in not telling me' & 'I'm not really prejudiced against girls singing but ...'. The one below, though, takes the biscuit - suggesting someone should be sacked because boys aren't interested in singing? What does she/he expect? for the DoM to go out & kidnap boys to make sure he (or possibly she) has a constant supply?

Flosshilde

It would help if you read what I actually wrote

I did not say that a cathedral DoM should be sacked because boys are no longer interested in singing I said that if a DoM cannot recruit boys ( which is a major part of his job after all) he should not necessarily be sacked but ought, at least, to be able to convince the Dean and Chapter that although he had tried all possible means he had been unsuccessful and it would appear that boys were no longer interested in singing in a cathedral choir.

In this scenario it would then, presumably, be up to the D&C to decide whether they accepted this. If they did they would no doubt ask the DoM to provide the music for services in another way eg carrying on with girls only on the top line or perhaps by using an adult professional choir or if they did not accept that he had done all he could or that boys were not interested in singing in a cathedral choir.they might require him to resign.

I would imagine that a D&C would go out of their way not to get to a position where they ask a DoM to resign if he doesn't wish to. In some places already DoM has become organist only for example.

VCC

[orbis factor]

Flosshilde

It would help if you read what I actually wrote

I did not say that a cathedral DoM should be sacked because boys are no longer interested in singing I said that if a DoM cannot recruit boys ( which is a major part of his job after all) he should not necessarily be sacked but ought, at least, to be able to convince the Dean and Chapter that although he had tried all possible means he had been unsuccessful and it would appear that boys were no longer interested in singing in a cathedral choir.

In this scenario it would then, presumably, be up to the D&C to decide whether they accepted this. If they did they would no doubt ask the DoM to provide the music for services in another way eg carrying on with girls only on the top line or perhaps by using an adult professional choir or if they did not accept that he had done all he could or that boys were not interested in singing in a cathedral choir.they might require him to resign.

I would imagine that a D&C would go out of their way not to get to a position where they ask a DoM to resign if he doesn't wish to. In some places already DoM has become organist only for example.

VCC

Perhaps you're entering into a fantasy world of scenarios in cathedral music that simply don't exist?

[Flosshilde]

But the core question is why should it be so important to have boys singing that it becomes a potentially sackable offence not to be able to provide them, especially when many (most?) people can't tell the difference between boys & girls? (singing, that is)

[orbis factor]

But the core question is why should it be so important to have boys singing that it becomes a potentially sackable offence not to be able to provide them, especially when many (most?) people can't tell the difference between boys & girls? (singing, that is)

You'd better ask the expert!

[Magnificat]

paul duggan2

This all goes back to my post number 32.

I was annoyed by Contre Bombarde who seemed to think that I was against girls' choirs because they were not traditional and said that this sort of view was of no concern to cathedral musicians because it is solely they who are keeping the tradition of cathedral music alive not me.

Since I and many other enthusiasts of cathedral music had just been involved in a major and very successful fund raising event at St Albans in order to help maintain the choral tradition in perpetuity there ( girls and boys by the way ) I was fuming at CB's arrogance.

I came back at him by suggesting that cathedral music and the tradition of boys top lines was too important to be left to the professionals and I was convinced they would get shot of boys as soon as possible if they could mainly because the difficulties with recruitment. I also said that as long as boys top lines remained any DoM who failed to recruit in acceptable numbers should be fired but, of course, they would not be and there was no danger of them losing their job for life if they wanted to keep it. I was writing generally. having a go at CB, and had no specific cathedral or DoM in my mind.

What I am questioning is whether DoMs are doing all they can to recruit boys.

There is an interview with the very successful Andy Lumsden of Winchester in the latest edition of Cathedral Music magazine where he states that recruitment is difficult even there.

Every time I read simlilar articles it is always the same story and it is always commented upon at the AGMs of The Choir Schools Association.

The usual method of recruiting for cathedral choirs which, for as long as I cam remember. has been yearly voice trials with tweaks to this system such as the DoM advertising that he /she will see interested boys at any time and more recently the 'be a chorister for a day' innovation that has been set up.

If these methods are not pulling in enough recruits then surely it is time for new thinking and I have likened chorister recruitment with marketing generally where the major rule is that if the customer isn't coming to you then you have to go to him.

I have been suggesting, as a result, that if voice trials and membership of a first rate choir school are not doing the job of attracting potential choristers as well as using these methods DoMs must be more pro- active and get out and around all the schools in their area as well as the community generally and effectively try to sell their product as it were. I have pointed out that cathedrals without choir schools have to do this anyway as do parish churches but it obviously requires a lot more effort on the part of any DoM, extra effort, in fact, that a Dean & Chapter which wishes to and is serious about running a traditional choir of boys and men in modern times should expect and that no DoM should be able to dispense with a boys top line until and unless everything possible has been tried to ensure that it continues.

As I have said the Flosshilde I would not expect a D&C to dismiss any DoM who tried every avenue in this respect and failed but, of course, that is and should be their prerogative as it would be for any employer. It is up to any employee to justify his/her actions in doing any job.

VCC