(Formerly) CE from York

[MrGongGong]

Erm..l.....after all, not sure how you'd measure that anyway!!

What on earth happened in 1840 ?

[ardcarp]

Well, it's not often you find fish and choirs on the same graph.
I wonder if there was a big volcanic eruption in 1840...and one can only speculate why that might have affected things.

[Vile Consort]

The excellent Ship of Fools forum has a "Dead Horses" section for topics that keep taking over thread after thread without hope of resolution, and contributors are asked to restrict all discussion of those topics to that section.

Perhaps our hosts might consider this solution to the endless, and fruitless, argument over boy versus girl choristers which is, frankly, becoming very tedious for the rest of us.

[DracoM]

The excellent Ship of Fools forum has a "Dead Horses" section for topics that keep taking over thread after thread without hope of resolution, and contributors are asked to restrict all discussion of those topics to that section.

Perhaps our hosts might consider this solution to the endless, and fruitless, argument over boy versus girl choristers which is, frankly, becoming very tedious for the rest of us.

Yes, I suppose one might.

[nytseiyork]

The excellent Ship of Fools forum has a "Dead Horses" section for topics that keep taking over thread after thread without hope of resolution, and contributors are asked to restrict all discussion of those topics to that section.

Perhaps our hosts might consider this solution to the endless, and fruitless, argument over boy versus girl choristers which is, frankly, becoming very tedious for the rest of us.

Yes, indeed. It's disappointing that discussion about such a successful broadcast would, yet again, be hijacked by one or two frequent posters on this forum, who discover the sound (which they initially lauded too) wasn't what they thought they were hearing. Is it not enough simply to have enjoyed this broadcast and leave it at that?

And for the record, to return to the case in hand, York Minster has a thriving boy treble line that has been in existence for many hundreds of years and shows absolutely now signs of diminishing. Both the boy chorister and girls choristers receive exactly the same training, share the services equally and feature in broadcasts/special services equally. Rarely, but occasionally, they sing combined. And neither seem to have any trouble recruiting as there are always new probationers appearing to stand next to their more experienced colleagues. There is no need to worry about the loss of quality of the boys at York, regardless of the quality of the girls. Both are fantastic.

[Magnificat]

Well, I suggest that you lobby actively behind the scenes for DOMs to pursue your advice. You could write a short pamphlet to circulate among them. I think that would be more effective than posting views on the duties of DOMs on this forum.

Speaking as an outsider who only reads these discussions, I think it's a shame that a thread devoted to a particular service, and one which seems generally to have been very much appreciated, turns yet again into a discussion about the need to recruit and encourage more boys, a principle which few, surely, would disagree about.

I have amended the description of this board from 'and all matters choral' to 'and choral music' to keep it within the remit of Radio 3.

FF

Are you really being serious?

What on earth is wrong with having views on how DoMs should go about recruiting boys for their choirs and mentioning them on here. Very few of these threads ever stick just to the music heard on the broadcast as you well know. How many more areas of interest as regards The Choir and choral music will you be restricting us from commenting on in the future? Does anyone here really want such an anodyne message board as you obviously envisage it becoming?

It seems to me that from this and your previously imposed restrictions you are scared stiff of any one upsetting these sensitive souls. Have you been lobbied?

VCC

[Magnificat]

I think you'll find that they are already open to any boy who is good enough. Every cathedral of which I've had experience has funding available to support choristers from less monied backgrounds.

You say that it shouldn't be a requirement to attend the associated school. While this may on the face of it seem like a good idea, there are considerable practical difficulties in having choristers in the same choir attending different schools. If morning practice finishes ten minutes before the start of the (cathedral) school day, what happens to the boy whose school is a couple of miles away? Does he leave the practice early? How does he get to his own school? What happens if there is a special service in the middle of the school day? Etc etc.

MC

Yes there may well be problems to overcome but how are cathedrals going to increase the pool of chorister resources available to them if they just leave things as they are? These difficulties already exist in places that don't have choir schools by the way and they have to find ways to live with them.

They may be able to help with school fees but if DoMs should feel that it may be a good idea to go out and try to recruit from schools in their area they will inevitably have many parents saying that yes they are interested in having their boy sing in the choir but they do not want to uproot their child from a school in which he is already settled. Will DoMs just give up the possibility of recruiting a potentially talented singer rather than trying to find a way of accommodating these sort of requests. A 'can do' attitude in these sort of situations must prevail.

VCC

[Magnificat]

Yes, indeed. It's disappointing that discussion about such a successful broadcast would, yet again, be hijacked by one or two frequent posters on this forum, who discover the sound (which they initially lauded too) wasn't what they thought they were hearing. Is it not enough simply to have enjoyed this broadcast and leave it at that?

And for the record, to return to the case in hand, York Minster has a thriving boy treble line that has been in existence for many hundreds of years and shows absolutely now signs of diminishing. Both the boy chorister and girls choristers receive exactly the same training, share the services equally and feature in broadcasts/special services equally. Rarely, but occasionally, they sing combined. And neither seem to have any trouble recruiting as there are always new probationers appearing to stand next to their more experienced colleagues. There is no need to worry about the loss of quality of the boys at York, regardless of the quality of the girls. Both are fantastic.

nytseiyork.

I am very pleased to hear that things are thriving at York. I had no doubt that they would under Robert Sharpe as I said on this board at the time of his appointment from Truro whose choir always impressed me whenever it broadcast CE.

No, it is not simply enough to have enjoyed the broadcast, which I did by the way. I am quite happy to listen to the choir with boys or girls on the top line but I should be in the same position as the congregation in the Minster who can see them. I don't understand why the BBC do not appreciate this even if the cathedral still prefers not to credit its singers on its music list.

Vile Consort,

The discussion which stemmed from not being told which singers were providing our enjoyment has not been about boys versus girls it has simply been about the importance of and ways of ensuring that boys continue to sing in our cathedral choirs. I am sorry you find this tedious.

VCC

[decantor]

There is no need to worry about the loss of quality of the boys at York, regardless of the quality of the girls. Both are fantastic.

n-york, I am of course hugely grateful for this reassurance - your judgement, I'm sure, is utterly impartial. But can you not see how irritating your words are? You pronounce from on high that there are, apparently, two equally "fantastic" choirs in York Minster, yet I am not allowed to know which one I am hearing. The implication is that I will not give credit where it's due - and that is insulting. Yes, I think it important that boys sing, but it is only in York's stance that I begin to see a downside to girls being given the same opportunity. It means that two groups of youngsters work hard to achieve excellence, but neither is accorded due credit. That is an injustice to both singer and listener - yet you shrug off the injustice as a "hi-jacking" of the thread.

A lesser point. You admitted earlier that the boys attracted a larger congregation, but the latest policy denies them that satisfaction. That is tantamount to declaring that the girls are promoted at the expense of the boys. Instead of poking the boys in the eye in that way, would it not have been better to challenge the girls to reverse public perception (as they clearly could and have)? Or even to acknowledge that a millennium of all-male singing still has its power? I'm sure the York boys are content with the position, but that may be only because children tend to accept adult decisions in such matters. York chose to skew the playing field to the boys' disadvantage. Honourable? Do the girls really need advantageous handicapping? It's all very strange.

I am not happy to be posting in this mode - girls now sing beautifully in our cathedrals, and I do not pretend to be able to distinguish choristers of similar age. But gender equality is not best achieved by artificial anonymity but by favourable comparisons. I hope York may one day reconsider its tendentious policy - and that you yourself will not regale us with opinions we have no opportunity to review.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have the Priory Complete New English Hymnal set of CDs, the first of which is sung by York Minster Choir. Although the CD notes do specify which hymn are sung by boys/girls, I first heard it "blind" and it was entirel obvious which choir was which. At that time, the boys were vastly superior, but that may have changed. What cannot change is the difference in timbre. An amusing side-effect of both choirs singing together in nthe final hymn (Jerusalem) is that their enthusiasm results in a a strong hint of a Yorkshire accent.

[MrGongGong]

I am quite happy to listen to the choir with boys or girls on the top line but I should be in the same position as the congregation in the Minster who can see them.

easily solved

Last time I went there I seem to remember that York was on the east coast mainline and the Minster is easy to spot , it's the big churchy building about 10 minutes walk from the station........

[french frank]

Instead of poking the boys in the eye in that way, would it not have been better to challenge the girls to reverse public perception (as they clearly could and have)?

Isn't that exactly what they did? How could they reverse the perception of a congregation who chose not to attend because they knew it was 'only the girls'?

The idea that consideration should be given to rewarding the boys with the 'satisfaction' of drawing bigger crowds than the girls seems to me to miss the point of what a religious service is about. [It is a religious service, isn't it? Or has York 'skewed' its priorities in favour of the service and the music?]

[Wolsey]

What on earth is wrong with having views on how DoMs should go about recruiting boys for their choirs and mentioning them on here.

As you are quite obviously an expert on the matter, I would suggest that you contact the Cathedral Organists' Association and offer to lead an INSET session about it at one of the bi-annual conferences.

[DracoM]

AAMOI, what kinds of things does the Organists Assoc talk about? Would such a topic come up in the normal course of events? or would that sort of thing be done over the coffee and eats?

Genuine question - not trying to make a point at all, just curious.

[french frank]

Originally Posted by french frank
Well, I suggest that you lobby actively behind the scenes for DOMs to pursue your advice. You could write a short pamphlet to circulate among them. I think that would be more effective than posting views on the duties of DOMs on this forum.

FF

Are you really being serious?

No.

What on earth is wrong with having views on how DoMs should go about recruiting boys for their choirs and mentioning them on here. Very few of these threads ever stick just to the music heard on the broadcast as you well know. How many more areas of interest as regards The Choir and choral music will you be restricting us from commenting on in the future? Does anyone here really want such an anodyne message board as you obviously envisage it becoming?

It seems to me that from this and your previously imposed restrictions you are scared stiff of any one upsetting these sensitive souls.

I approve of the Wikipedia guidelines on Biographies of Living Persons. You are in the privileged position, when posting on this board, of publishing your opinions to the world. The world cannot judge you because you're anonymous, but it can (and frequently does) judge this forum on the basis of what people post. And it's not always to the advantage of the forum.

Have you been lobbied?

VCC

Yes. DOMs from near and far have been writing in droves to ask me to make sure people don't say nasty things about the way they do their job.

Or, to put it another way: if you wish to discuss how DOMs might recruit new boy choristers, or why this is so important, start a thread on that subject. Just leave the individual CE threads for discussions about the programme/service. The point that, I think, Vile Consort was echoing was that it becomes tedious when individual threads are constantly hijacked by the same subject.