(Formerly) CE from York

[Guest]

One might also add that people very rarely identify correctly which set of choristers is on. And indeed if they do, they note that they sound all but identical. I think the Minster's choice to not release this information is very informed and gives these excellent choristers - both boys and girls - the chance to shine.

nytseiyork,

As we have said on here so many times before surely it is right to credit the forces involved. I haven't listened yet but if the top line is as good as has been said then the girls would appreciate the recognition I would have thought and if they have built a good reputation then there should be no fear of people not coming to listen to them. I just don't understand the way cathedrals think on this matter.

As for girls' sound generally:a top line of girls of with a preponderence of older age groups, say 12 to 13/14 can sound very much like a really good set of boys age 10/13 depending on how they have been trained. I hear it all the time at St Albans where the girls regularly match the boys and the boys are very very good indeed. I'm not at all surprised that the York girls are so good. But it is wrong to leave listeners with a false impression as to whom they are hearing. It is so easy to print on the music list that the service will be sung by the boys/girls and men of the cathedral choir etc. As Draco says above these days listeners look up the York site on the web and should be given this information.

VCC

[Magnificat]

Minster doesn't release which set of choristers will be on, including for broadcasts and recordings, in order to give the girls at least a fighting chance of being considered on the same plane.

nytseiyork,

As far as recordings are concerned, not to credit the performers is quite wrong can badly mislead.

There was a recent Wells recording where this was done and a critic in one of the major newspapers, obviously assuming that the choir was the traditional cathedral choir of boys and men, waxed lyrical about the current Wells choir having no problems with the ages old scourge of choirmasters - boys' voices breaking and was made to look a right idiot because he wasn't aware of the Wells' girls being included on the disc and the latter included girls ( young women) up to age 18 at the time so of course the singing sounded accomplished!!

VCC

[Gabriel Jackson]

nytseiyork,

As far as recordings are concerned, not to credit the performers is quite wrong can badly mislead.

There was a recent Wells recording where this was done and a critic in one of the major newspapers, obviously assuming that the choir was the traditional cathedral choir of boys and men, waxed lyrical about the current Wells choir having no problems with the ages old scourge of choirmasters - boys' voices breaking and was made to look a right idiot because he wasn't aware of the Wells' girls being included on the disc and the latter included girls ( young women) up to age 18 at the time so of course the singing sounded accomplished!!

VCC

Funny that, considering all Wells recordings list all the singers involved in the booklet...

[DracoM]

If the foundation does not list who the top line is, it ends up with NO-ONE getting credit. Except the DoM!!

I simply do not see the point of that. And I can think of some [not me, I hasten to add] who would actually STOP travelling a distance to a cathedral because they would be unsure who is singing. That way, they would miss excellence, congregations might be smaller, the cathedral's hard work to advance their reputation for musical skill and inclusiveness would get damaged,

It is such a tiny thing on a website, and to leave it out frankly sounds like lose-lose to me.

[Miles Coverdale]

But it is wrong to leave listeners with a false impression as to whom they are hearing. It is so easy to print on the music list that the service will be sung by the boys/girls and men of the cathedral choir etc. As Draco says above these days listeners look up the York site on the web and should be given this information.
VCC

How are listeners being left with a false impression? The only thing that is false is the assumption made by some that it was the boys singing. The reason that cathedrals may not provide this information is that they don't, I imagine, want to give some people the opportunity to pick and choose which services they attend based solely on the gender of the top line, which some no doubt would.

If, as Draco avers, there are those who wouldn't travel to a service if they didn't know for sure who they were going to get, then they would, in my opinion, be going for the wrong reasons.

It is wrong to say that the only person who gets credit is the DoM. The choir of York Minster is credited, of which both the boys and girls are members.

[DracoM]

Em..........just a tiny thought: in fact, in a curious way, it might even affect recruitment if you do NOT make it clear that both boys and girls are given fine status in singing services in a foundation by publishing on a widely seen website what the policy is?

[nytseiyork]

It is wrong to say that the only person who gets credit is the DoM. The choir of York Minster is credited, of which both the boys and girls are members.

One might add - are equal members. There is no need for congregations to know which set is singing. As far as anyone should be concerned they are the choristers of York Minster, both sets of which are of an equally high standard. Why would it matter? People should, and do in their hundreds, come each day to hear great singing. The only reason they'd want to know is to avoid the girls, which as we've seen from the initial reactions on this forum, would mean they miss out on hearing some fantastic singers.

And the reason they decided to stop printing which set it is was is not out of speculation but a monitored and assessed difference in attendance figures for services.

[DracoM]

< There is no need for congregations to know which set is singing >

Sorry, I think that is arrogant. Who are you to tell your congregation what is important to them in attending a Minster service?

You will know what we think it is good for you to know? Erm...............???

[nytseiyork]

Well, yes, in a word. But I wouldn't characterise it as arrogance. It's more trying to get over age-old prejudices which people hold without have any justification. It's the easiest way. And seems to work. So why not?

[terratogen]

And I can think of some [not me, I hasten to add] who would actually STOP travelling a distance to a cathedral because they would be unsure who is singing. That way, they would miss excellence, congregations might be smaller, the cathedral's hard work to advance their reputation for musical skill and inclusiveness would get damaged

I'm peripherally acquainted with a gentleman who at one time frequented York for evensong. It used to be that he would consult the music list ahead of time in order to avoid turning up and finding the girls on. (Not that the girls were bad, I'm sure he would tell you; just different: just not the 'proper' cathedral choir—despite York's insistence—and therefore not really worth making the trip in to hear.) When York stopped listing which trebles would sing which services, this gentleman boiled over in righteous anger and stopped attending altogether, but only after storming out after the introit once or twice, finding he had in fact stumbled upon the girls' evenings on. He blames the Minster. I blame a spiteful nose.

People like this acquaintance are in a very small minority, I'm sure, but I've heard of this sort of behaviour going on elsewhere and can be certain that the decision-makers at the relevant cathedrals are only too aware that it happens and have—as York has done—taken measures to do what they feel will best serve, support and protect all of their choristers. Is it a pity that this former Minster-goer will miss the stellar musical offerings from York? Absolutely. Is it a shame that York might miss another body in the congregation and another few quid in the collection? Certainly. But if a group of twenty expertly trained, enthusiastic girls singing alongside the Songmen was enough to chase this man away from a place where he'd worshiped for years, I have to echo Miles in wondering whether he'd been there for the right reasons in the first place.

Anyway.

I don't know that I can add anything that hasn't been said re: the skill level or tone of the ensemble, but it occurred to me as I listened that the trebles weren't allowed to get away with 'lazy/schwa-y/smile vowels' as it seems some girls' lines are let to do where their male counterparts are not. I'd wager that vowel shape is a large part of the answer to how Robert Sharpe (and others who've trained excellent boy and girl lines) gets the girls to 'sound like boys'.

In short, though: what a tremendous sound this choir made. I'm a bit blown away. I'd been looking forward to this CE for several weeks—it's very rare that I recognise as much of the Order of Service as I did this week—and was in no way disappointed when I finally got a chance to listen tonight.

I felt, particularly at certain points in the responses, that I was hearing an orchestra rather than a choir, and the first few seconds of David Sawyer's anthem sent a shiver up and down my spine. Yet another Choirbook for the Queen anthem I'd hope to hear again. As others have already said, the psalmody was breath-taking; there was just the right measure of heartache in those most desperate of psalms, and to hear favourite texts of mine so sensitively rendered was a joy, bleak texts though they might have been.

Congratulations and thanks to the music department at York!

[Magnificat]

Funny that, considering all Wells recordings list all the singers involved in the booklet...

Gabriel,

If that is the case the critic was obviously lazy but his comments were exactly as I have said. Perhaps it might have been better, though, to have shown quite clearly who the performers were on the front cover of the disc.

I still feel that cathedrals that regard their choir, as at Wells and York, as being made up of the boys, girls, and men are likely to cause confusion when both the boys and the girls mainly sing separately with the men.

VCC

[yorks_bass]

Perhaps it might have been better, though, to have shown quite clearly who the performers were on the front cover of the disc.

Did it not mention that it was Wells Cathedral Choir?!

[decantor]

Well, yes, in a word. But I wouldn't characterise it as arrogance. It's more trying to get over age-old prejudices which people hold without have any justification. It's the easiest way. And seems to work. So why not?

Aha! So an education programme, a little light social engineering. Part of the Minster's mission, no doubt. And stuffy old traditional Anglicans are not really welcome any more. I'm glad it's working for you.

I'm slightly surprised, however, the the girl choristers' sensitivities were given so much consideration. Has nobody told them that they are singing, not to an audience, but for God, and that He always turns up anyway, even if no one else does? And does the choir sing its services from behind a screen lest the congregation penetrate the secret of the day's treble line? And are the Minster's organ recitalists always anonymous, lest the organ scholar's nose be put out of joint when he attracts a smaller audience than Naji Hakim? Just so many issues!

And what of your own position? You appear to have wickedly blown the gaff on the broadcasting trebles. But have you? If equality is York's watchword, you might well have misled us to promote the girls' cause. Or to spare the boys' blushes when they couldn't master this music list. We'll never know, of course. Integrity is compromised. Another tangled web! Does it matter? Does anything?

[Gabriel Jackson]

Gabriel,

If that is the case the critic was obviously lazy but his comments were exactly as I have said.

VCC

So here we have a "critic" who cannot tell whether he/she is listening to boys or girls, and cannot read. Not, perhaps, someone in whose judgements one should have much confidence.

[Magnificat]

[QUOTE=Miles Coverdale;174723]How are listeners being left with a false impression? The only thing that is false is the assumption made by some that it was the boys singing.

MC

Listeners should not be put in a position where they can falsely assume that it is boys singing and not girls. The point is that very many people still associate cathedral choirs with boys and men. It is nothing to do with the quality of the singing or whether you can tell the difference between the sound of boys' and girls' voices or not.

To leave someone with the impression that they have been listening to a very good top line of boys when it was, in fact, girls singing is unfortunate for both the listener and the girls.

It also, in my opinion, could create the unfortunate impression that Robert Sharpe's boys were not up to singing some tricky music and that this was being hidden by this thing about the cathedral choir being made up of the boys, girls and men. Greater transparency all round in making sure both the congregation and radio listeners know exactly which forces are singing a service would ensure that these impressions/assumptions are not formed.

VCC