The Dictatorship of the Etonariat

[ahinton]

I can't help noticing that, having trashed Corbyn's carefully calculated neutrality for "indecision", the mainstream media have now taken to piling into Jo Swinson, claiming the Liberal Democrats' new policy as "too extreme", and effectively in betrayal of the majority vote.

Corbyn's "carefully calculated(?) neutrality" isn't necessarily "indecision" but, if it isn't, it is refusal to reveal his view to his MPs, party members and everyone else who might want to know what it is. As to Swinson, whilst I support her views on Brexit insofar as is possible (and at least one knows what they are), her voting record reveals her to be an unfortunately Tory-(not-so)-lite choice of party leader especially at a time when that party might just otherwise be on the point of tasting some electoral success.

[Richard Barrett]

Indeed not. but it being presented as problematic to actually understand , as the Labour position also has been, is just wrong.

Quite.

The Tory position is unclear, lurching between no-deal and some hypothetical deal which so far has been impossible to agree on, but in any case regarding the 48% who voted Remain as unworthy of consideration.

The LD position is to revoke Article 50, regarding the 52% who voted Leave as misguided or stupid.

The Labour position is to hold a referendum with a clearly defined question involving a "soft" deal which has been clearly described already (permanent customs union, labour and environmental protections, etc.) and cancelling Brexit, thus giving everyone who voted last time and everyone who didn't an opportunity to have their voice heard. Jeremy Corbyn himself has said that he personally would remain neutral. Further details will no doubt become clearer once they've been voted on at the party conference next week.

I think all of this comes under the heading of "not rocket science".

[eighthobstruction]

So JC isn't going to cast a vote in the potential Referendum???....

So JC isn't going to cast a vote in Parliament ref on certain Brexit matters???

So JC isn't going to vote ref Referendum etc on the LPNEC????

So JC isn't going to vote on a variety of possible motions at Party Conference....???

From what date is he going to be neutral???....he seems to be in neutral at moment....He might as well have been in neutral in June 2016 [that was half the trouble].....

The mind spirals in devining the complexities he is creating (as usual) for himself....

[DracoM]

<< The LD position is to revoke Article 50, regarding the 52% who voted Leave as misguided or stupid. >>

Woa, hang on.............

How many of either Leave or Remain had more than the faintest idea of the immense significance, economic ramifications for flow of goods, industrial investment, agrifoods services, security, medical reserves etc etc back in 2016, and that's even before we think about who our upcoming trading partners might be, what leaving might expose eg agriculture to when we left?

Erm.'Yellowhammer' anyone?

Neither 'side' were informed, knew where / how to get informed, and we were ALL in the hands of exploiters, opportunists, and outright hucksters and liars.

I'd say that the LDs are saying 'phew, lads and lasses, let's just step back and re-think this.' are they not?

[teamsaint]

Just to go back to Corbyn for a moment, I am absolutely convinced that if, at any time, he thought that going full on Remain would have got him great poll ratings, a unified party, and a strong possibility of an election win, he would have done it in a heartbeat.
He may be very sceptical on the EU, but his desire to lead the country and have the chance to implement some radical policies must surely outweigh his euro scepticism ?

In a better world he would be out front leading on ideals. but in this world he is, like the others, having to try to box very clever in the face of myriad challenges, not least of which is the risk of electoral collapse in his heartlands.
And for Remainers he ( and his Remain leaning party) still represent the major hope of an acceptable outcome.

( I still think that May's deal, or something very like it will return before long.....path of least resistance.......possibly with referendum attached).

[Richard Barrett]

Neither 'side' were informed, knew where / how to get informed, and we were ALL in the hands of exploiters, opportunists, and outright hucksters and liars.

I'd say that the LDs are saying 'phew, lads and lasses, let's just step back and re-think this.' are they not?

I agree with you that disinformation and lack of information were rife from both sides in 2016. Many people who voted Leave were indeed misguided. But that's all the more reason to give them a chance to be guided this time around. I would have thought that "let's just step back and rethink" would imply that everyone gets a chance to rethink.

[DracoM]

Is a decent point.

[muzzer]

I don’t think Corbyn wants to be PM. But I think he doesn’t want to let his party down. I think Labour’s position that it will negotiate its own deal with the EU is, politely, untenable. I think the combo of Johnson and Cummings is terrifying in what it could foist on the country. I’m unimpressed by Swinson but at least the Lib Dems are clear on Brexit. And I see this minute a “Get Ready for Brexit” government ad on the tv, which makes my blood boil, frankly. In a world threatened by the lunacy of Trump and the stealth of Putin I still cannot believe that Britain appears poised to shoot itself in the foot again.

[CGR]

Just to go back to Corbyn for a moment, I am absolutely convinced that if, at any time, he thought that going full on Remain would have got him great poll ratings, a unified party, and a strong possibility of an election win, he would have done it in a heartbeat.
He may be very sceptical on the EU, but his desire to lead the country and have the chance to implement some radical policies must surely outweigh his euro scepticism ?

In a better world he would be out front leading on ideals. but in this world he is, like the others, having to try to box very clever in the face of myriad challenges, not least of which is the risk of electoral collapse in his heartlands.
And for Remainers he ( and his Remain leaning party) still represent the major hope of an acceptable outcome.

( I still think that May's deal, or something very like it will return before long.....path of least resistance.......possibly with referendum attached).

We all know that Corbyn has been very anti-EU for almost all of his political career following in the path of Tony Benn, Peter Short and other notable leftwingers of the past.

Now he has to kowtow to a membership who, though quite leftwing in many ways, are strangely supportive of the neo-liberal, markets-orientated, globalist EU that is dominated by the EU based multinational corporations with their need to drive down wages and increase profits for the bosses. Of course, many of the PLP still exist in some Blairite fantasy world where the EU can do no wrong.

[DracoM]

I don’t think Corbyn wants to be PM. But I think he doesn’t want to let his party down. I think Labour’s position that it will negotiate its own deal with the EU is, politely, untenable. I think the combo of Johnson and Cummings is terrifying in what it could foist on the country. I’m unimpressed by Swinson but at least the Lib Dems are clear on Brexit. And I see this minute a “Get Ready for Brexit” government ad on the tv, which makes my blood boil, frankly. In a world threatened by the lunacy of Trump and the stealth of Putin I still cannot believe that Britain appears poised to shoot itself in the foot again.

Never a truer word. But try telling Leavers that.

[MrGongGong]

I don’t think Corbyn wants to be PM. But I think he doesn’t want to let his party down.

That's because (and he DOES have some good ideas about things like us owning our own trains etc etc ) he cares more about his party than he does the country or the people he claims to have empathy and care for.
Very sad indeed

[ahinton]

That's because (and he DOES have some good ideas about things like us owning our own trains etc etc ) he cares more about his party than he does the country or the people he claims to have empathy and care for.
Very sad indeed

But for pity's sake, I do not want to own any trains - still less be forced to do so - not least because I have less than no clue as to how to maintain and run them or how to run rail networks or how to market trains, trains service, rail networks or any of that stuff. Please. NO! That said, I cannot disagree with you about Mr Corbyn; indeed, given what might well be taken for his apparent predilection for vacillation on at least that one topic, might that make him Mr Swingbyn?

[Richard Barrett]

he cares more about his party than he does the country or the people he claims to have empathy and care for.

You keep saying that but what does it actually mean?

[Bella Kemp]

Nationalisation doesn't mean that we the people own the trains! - it simply means that the government appoints their own set of managers to run the trains, takes more of your money for the privilege and then tells you 'This is yours! But you still have to buy a ticket.' And workers in nationalised industries fared no better than those who work in these privatised industries now: you will find proof if you care to research the endless strikes over pay and conditions that occurred under both Labour and Tory governments in the coal industry, the railways, British Leyland back in the day. We may also care to remember how awful British Rail actually was - rotten food, smelly trains, uncomfortable seats and absolutely abysmal stations. It is now quite pleasant to while away an hour on a station waiting for a train, browsing the shops, sitting in a cafe; whereas in the past the experience was horrible. I remember my mother once taking me to the Ladies at Kings Cross station in the 60s: a vile visit. My elder brothers loved trainspotting though, and even I can become wistful at sight of a steam train. When the crumbling ruin that claims to be our Labour party now speak of a return to nationalisation, I sense that they are ironically playing on a conservative nostalgia for a past golden era that never was.

[Serial_Apologist]

We all know that Corbyn has been very anti-EU for almost all of his political career following in the path of Tony Benn, Peter Short and other notable leftwingers of the past.

Now he has to kowtow to a membership who, though quite leftwing in many ways, are strangely supportive of the neo-liberal, markets-orientated, globalist EU that is dominated by the EU based multinational corporations with their need to drive down wages and increase profits for the bosses. Of course, many of the PLP still exist in some Blairite fantasy world where the EU can do no wrong.

I would agree, were it possible to wish the multiliaterals away post-Brexit; but it's obvious that the far right were always to be in charge of a post-Brexit Britain - in other words the very people who would prostrate themselves before those multinationals - unless we can persuade the likes of eighthobstruction and MrGG out of their line of thinking. And that's before we tackle those Brexiters who answer the charge they were misinformed that they had already made up their minds before the start of the referendum campaign.