Originally posted by Dave2002
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The Dictatorship of the Etonariat
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Personally, I accept all the criticisms of the Lib Dems. They should never, stuck in a conference rooms with the Tories at 3am, have plumped for a PR referendum instead of abolishing tuition fees. V poor deal making skills. And even worse judgment. But now they are the only clearly anti Brexit party, so they get my vote. Historically of course “a liberal vote is a wasted vote”. But the middle is hollowed out. Tory and Labour are peddling rampant populism and are both unrecognisable compared to 10 years ago. My view is that labour can’t govern and that the Tories can’t serve (other than themselves). Jo Swinson needs a bit of media training but she’s a better bet than the loony extremes.
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Originally posted by muzzer View PostPersonally, I accept all the criticisms of the Lib Dems. They should never, stuck in a conference rooms with the Tories at 3am, have plumped for a PR referendum instead of abolishing tuition fees. V poor deal making skills. And even worse judgment. But now they are the only clearly anti Brexit party, so they get my vote. Historically of course “a liberal vote is a wasted vote”. But the middle is hollowed out. Tory and Labour are peddling rampant populism and are both unrecognisable compared to 10 years ago. My view is that labour can’t govern and that the Tories can’t serve (other than themselves). Jo Swinson needs a bit of media training but she’s a better bet than the loony extremes.
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Brexit aside, ( and remembering that most Labour MPs and members are remainers and they are committed to a referendum) I really wish somebody could explain to me what it was in the last manifesto or current policy, that amounts to the hard left/ marxism/ populism of which the party is so regularly accused.
A recent look at the 2017 manifesto reinforced my view of their policy as being broadly mainstream social democatic.
Th discourse in public life in this country has veered , apparently unnoticed, a long way to the right in , as Ferney suggests, 10 years, as “ Fracker” Swinson demonstrates.I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
I am not a number, I am a free man.
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Well, there I fear we must agree to differ. Jeremy Corbyn is an excellent MP, but the thought of him as PM fills me with horror. Likewise John McDonnell anywhere near the levers of the economy. I think we need to look beyond our borders at how we can stave off the brutal protectionism of Trump and the old style of Putin. Overall, I think that means strengthening our ties with the EU. I realise it’s not an easy choice. I pray in aid the sweep of history, Britain’s real, limited, influence, and human nature.
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Originally posted by muzzer View PostA church treasurer with an abacus would be preferable to Javid. No offence to anyone performing that role. McDonnell or any of his ilk would be a disaster simply because capital would flee the country.
You can’t legislate for that sort of stuff. It just happens. Marx vs reality. Sorry.
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We need capitalism to make the money and socialism to ensure that it is distributed fairly. Governments that offer pure socialism have always failed, alas - and, ironically, made the very people they sought to help worse off. There was nothing ever wrong with Labour's aspirations in their 2017 manifesto - it is a very attractive document - it's just that, as the voters realised, the ideas could never be brought into fruition. Pure capitalism, as our increasingly right-wing Tory party are also offering, is equally hideous. Politics needs to find its centre and its balance again. Despite what our media tells us, we have many fine MPs: it's a pity that their voices are being drowned by the cliques who have seized power in the Tory and Labour parties.
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Originally posted by Bella Kemp View PostWe need capitalism to make the money and socialism to ensure that it is distributed fairly.
Originally posted by Bella Kemp View PostGovernments that offer pure socialism have always failed, alas - and, ironically, made the very people they sought to help worse off. There was nothing ever wrong with Labour's aspirations in their 2017 manifesto - it is a very attractive document - it's just that, as the voters realised, the ideas could never be brought into fruition. Pure capitalism, as our increasingly right-wing Tory party are also offering, is equally hideous. Politics needs to find its centre and its balance again. Despite what our media tells us, we have many fine MPs: it's a pity that their voices are being drowned by the cliques who have seized power in the Tory and Labour parties.
The Labour 2017 manifesto was ambitious indeed. What exactly are you suggesting by politics find its centre? Ed Miliband offered austerity-lite and look how successful he was was! What is a 'centre' anyway? Politics often shifts this way and that - what Corbyn is proposing only seems radical in light of the shift to the right that has taken place since Thatcher (and just before her, too). There was no question of returning to Blairism after the 2008 crash.
As I've mentioned here before, capitalism is devouring the planet, inducing global warming that will causes various crises on a level that will make Brexit look like a twee joke.
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Originally posted by Joseph K View PostHasn't that already happened - all the rich people's money is in offshore tax havens?
Yeah right, 'there is no alternative'. It's curious that you should invoke Marx, when Corbyn/McDonnell's ideas are more Keynesian. My guess is, in the event of Labour coming to power, the government would have to pick up the pieces in terms of investment etc. I don't see Swinson, who has voted more in favour of Tory policy than many Tories, as offering anything new. What we need is a Green New Deal, ideally one that is transnational across Europe (DiEM25) and America (Bernie Sanders?) to lead the world in the right direction, to entrench socialism at least for the time-being so society and civilisation has some semblance of a chance of survival.
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostCouldn't have put it better myself. And your #508.
And what is more, it is important to remember something that politicians often like to avoid mentioning, which is that in modem mixed economies , relationships between the private and public sectors are very complex, opaque, and often not at all what they seem.I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
I am not a number, I am a free man.
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