Originally posted by eighthobstruction
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The Dictatorship of the Etonariat
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What's Jo Swinson playing at? First she objects to Corbyn heading a temporary government, now she wants nothing less than Remain – which is fine by me, except it might help Boris to win the next GE, unless Labour Conference endorses Remain without any other option. Confused.My life, each morning when I dress, is four and twenty hours less. (J Richardson)
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostI'm thinking of the Tory leavers, now at the helm, who will have advantage of a viagra equivalence boost if the Farage tells his support base they are to throw their support in with BoJo.
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Originally posted by Pianorak View PostWhat's Jo Swinson playing at?
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Originally posted by Pianorak View PostWhat's Jo Swinson playing at? First she objects to Corbyn heading a temporary government, now she wants nothing less than Remain – which is fine by me, except it might help Boris to win the next GE, unless Labour Conference endorses Remain without any other option. Confused.
The way I understood Labour's position, as of yesterday, is that were the party to win a general election, they would organise a new EU referendum with three choices: remain, leave with no deal, or accept any improvement deal they (Labour in power) are able to get out of the EU - none of which would be recommended or not, thus effectively re-assuring the traditional Labour voter they are not betraying the 2016 leaver vote.
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostI watched Part 2 of The Rise of the Nazis on BBC2 last night. Some emphasis is being laid on current relevance by the makers of this documentary, and one of the points made was that a disillusioned German working class flocked to Hitler in 1932 on a tide of allegations of the Communist Party preparing a coup from the top establishment and its press - for which there was in fact no material evidence - coupled with how they used Himmler's supposed charisma to gain support, despite the fact that he had offered no programme or policy platform other than "making Germany great agaiin". Well, the Nazis had to make maximum use of him, hadn't they? And the parallels are self-explanatory. A third point made, that democracy was still a new concept in 1932, clearly doesn't apply to our own time; but, observing the closed minds now having their day over Brexit, I am nevertheless getting a strong feeling of what it must have been like to have been in Germany at that stage. All of a sudden a single issue is being fetishised as some proving ground regarding "the People's" feelings about democracy, overlooking the entire complex of issues embraced in remaining or leaving which can only be resolved in a general election. I can't help wondering how many of those now proclaiming their faith in British sovereignty, while never being questioned by interviewers what precisely they mean by it, ever bothered to turn up to vote in pre-Brexit general elections, though I admit to having no evidence that they are offloading their guilt onto their opponents to prove this point.
Just been listening to some Joe-public interviewees on a news programme. Some can't even grasp the negative semantics of the word 'Brexit', e.g. "We just want to get on with it and leave Brexit". God help us. What box are they going to tick?
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostNo I haven't. I've wondered if Soros is a bit of a diversion in all this. Perhaps I should. Thanks, eighth.Last edited by eighthobstruction; 10-09-19, 17:52.bong ching
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostI watched Part 2 of The Rise of the Nazis on BBC2 last night. Some emphasis is being laid on current relevance by the makers of this documentary, and one of the points made was that a disillusioned German working class flocked to Hitler in 1932 on a tide of allegations of the Communist Party preparing a coup from the top establishment and its press - for which there was in fact no material evidence - coupled with how they used Himmler's supposed charisma to gain support, despite the fact that he had offered no programme or policy platform other than "making Germany great agaiin". Well, the Nazis had to make maximum use of him, hadn't they? And the parallels are self-explanatory. A third point made, that democracy was still a new concept in 1932, clearly doesn't apply to our own time; but, observing the closed minds now having their day over Brexit, I am nevertheless getting a strong feeling of what it must have been like to have been in Germany at that stage. All of a sudden a single issue is being fetishised as some proving ground regarding "the People's" feelings about democracy, overlooking the entire complex of issues embraced in remaining or leaving which can only be resolved in a general election. I can't help wondering how many of those now proclaiming their faith in British sovereignty, while never being questioned by interviewers what precisely they mean by it, ever bothered to turn up to vote in pre-Brexit general elections, though I admit to having no evidence that they are offloading their guilt onto their opponents to prove this point.
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Originally posted by MrGongGong View PostProbably
My misreading .... corrected by deletion
(though my comment about the "real world" still stands for those who read it before it went )I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
I am not a number, I am a free man.
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostAll of a sudden a single issue is being fetishised as some proving ground regarding "the People's" feelings about democracy, overlooking the entire complex of issues embraced in remaining or leaving which can only be resolved in a general election.
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A General Election held overwhelmingly on one issue is very different from a referendum IMO .
The losers would likely get 250 plus seats in Parliament and an official Leader of the Opposition, so ample opportunity to scrutinise and debate legislation with the chance to defeat or amend Bills if they muster enough support on the winning sides back benches.
The losers can't be dismissed, as they have been by many avid Brexiteers. I've heard endlesslessy about the "holy" 17 milion as they seemed to be regarded by "Leaver" zealots. "The biggest madate ever achieved in this country" I've also heard. If Leave 2019 is the biggest, the second biggest, by a narrow margin, must be the 16 million who voted remain.
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Originally posted by ardcarp View PostI watched it too, and the parallels were obvious and scary. ...
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Originally posted by Dave2002 View PostPerhaps I take issues with that. A GE based on one issue would effectively be very similar to a referendum, and as we are beginning to see, the “desired” outcomes based on a referendum result may not be achievable. GEs are usually not just centred on one single issue, but a collection. The delivered outcomes of a GE may also be unachievable, though sometimes there may be an “improvement” in one direction which can be hailed as a “success”, even if other factors do not improve as much or actually get worse.Last edited by Serial_Apologist; 11-09-19, 13:42.
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Originally posted by Frances_iom View PostI've posting this here for some time inc pre referendum - don't forget that the manufacturing/mining areas (ie most north of Watford) was left to stew in misery by Thatcher + her backers as reasonably paid, but thought to be secure, jobs disappeared with the best offer being that of working in a call centre with the social connectivity being ripped apart followed by 10 years of Tory cuts that were mostly aimed at the one-time working class - the EU which is seen as a key player in Scotland was detested by many Tories whose mouthpieces regaled their deluded readers with antiEU stories (some invented by BJ himself) - now they have the external enemy which only needed a demagogue to whip up the masses to give the reason for just the one 'enabling bill' to allow a true dictatorship to emerge.
Now that the very constitutionality of BoJo's prorogue has been overturned by Scotland's top court, and his advising of Her Maj put in question, any decision the Supreme Court comes to next Tuesday is going to be crucial in determining this or any future prime minister's ability to stymie democracy as we know it.
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