The Dictatorship of the Etonariat

[DracoM]

If the de-whipping of 20 or so Tories, most of whom are household names, and a core who are among the most respected on EITHER side of the aisle, had happened in Brazil, we would have been tutting and eye-rolling about that South American political gangsta-types fascist dictator getting rid of inconvenient annoyances.

Now voters see why Dominic Cummings has been increasingly depicted as dangerous? Many Tories in last night's TV coverage were openly suggesting that he had to go for having wrecked the Tory party in so spectacular a way. It is clear in the light of day that Johnson / Cummings have lurched the Tory party far, far further to the right than anyone could have predicted. It is now, as many suggested, the Brexit Party in all but name.

And as for the arrogant speech / behaviour / image of Toryism exemplified in Jacob Rees-Mogg..........crikey!

[MrGongGong]

JRM spent the day lying in Parliament



better still

[Richard Barrett]

faced with a ballot paper I can make a decision, but choice?

I would say that there hasn't in my lifetime been a clearer difference between the kinds of policies the different parties are advocating (with the exception of the Tories and Faragists who are becoming increasingly hard to tell apart).

It was a catastrophic mistake to call the Brexit referendum. Nevertheless the vote did go in favour of Leave, by no means the first time people have voted against their own interests. Any kind of Brexit is going to bring disadvantages, although some kinds might also have advantages in terms of freeing up a future government's hands for things like renationalisation. Those kinds are of course not going to be considered by a Tory government, whose priorities lie much more clearly in the direction of selling off the country's remaining public assets in a desperate trade deal with the USA. As I said in an earlier post, if a future government is not going to get away with cancelling Brexit altogether, or holding a second referendum which might deliver the same result as the first, or an even less decisive one, then the obvious thing to do would be to go ahead with a kind of Brexit (like those being discussed in the early days after the referendum) would "honour the result" with the minimum disruption. Again, no Tory government is going to do this, and it's been the kind of course that Corbyn has been steering all along, even leaving aside all the other anti-austerity policies an incoming Labour government would institute. So all of this seems to be fairly clear to me. And whether or not a Labour government is the result of the coming months, I have the feeling that the perspective of history will increasingly show that Corbyn has all along played a difficult hand as well as was humanly possible.

[Dave2002]

I wonder whether offensive comments like this would have been allowed on this forum in earlier days.

It used to be a source of balanced and informed opinions. Now we have abuse.

Was the original ironic - not sure? I am often not offended by irony.

There may be several levels, so possibly still offensive to some.

[eighthobstruction]

If the de-whipping of 20 or so Tories, most of whom are household names, and a core who are among the most respected on EITHER side of the aisle, had happened in Brazil, we would have been tutting and eye-rolling about that South American political gangsta-types fascist dictator getting rid of inconvenient annoyances.

Now voters see why Dominic Cummings has been increasingly depicted as dangerous? Many Tories in last night's TV coverage were openly suggesting that he had to go for having wrecked the Tory party in so spectacular a way. It is clear in the light of day that Johnson / Cummings have lurched the Tory party far, far further to the right than anyone could have predicted. It is now, as many suggested, the Brexit Party in all but name.

And as for the arrogant speech / behaviour / image of Toryism exemplified in Jacob Rees-Mogg..........crikey!

....i believe the word "clear" as used by so many politicians (clear majority for a start) should be stricken from the language....

[DracoM]

That JRM image alone will have enraged many, and convinced more of what has just been foisted on the nation.
I watched that debate throughout with growing incredulity.

[MrGongGong]

That JRM image alone will have enraged many, and convinced more of what has just been foisted on the nation.
I watched that debate throughout with growing incredulity.

What struck me was how our MPs are allowed to stand up and tell brazen lies without being called to account.

[DracoM]

[eighthobstruction]

That JRM image alone will have enraged many, and convinced more of what has just been foisted on the nation.
I watched that debate throughout with growing incredulity.

....I too watched for the most part from Prime Ministers ?'s onwards....my top image Dominic Grieve wringing his hands unselfconsciously....

[Conchis]

I wonder whether offensive comments like this would have been allowed on this forum in earlier days.

It used to be a source of balanced and informed opinions. Now we have abuse.

You have a very peculiar and, if I may say so, ‘individual’ idea of what constitutes abuse.

In any case, it’s literal fact, as you may realise after reading this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/03/disaster-wigan-voters-little-appetite-election

[ahinton]

Going back to what we were saying before about why Labour might not back an election, we now see the answer: first it needs to be clear that there won't be a no-deal Brexit at the end of October and then we'll see about an election, which would seem to be the best line to take under the circumstances with the clock ticking as it is.

Any way out of the current situation, if it isn't just going to bring about a lurch unto yet another crisis, is going to have to take into account the people who voted Remain and the people who voted Leave. If Brexit were cancelled tomorrow, the referendum declared null and void, the Moggs and Farages wouldn't just pack up and go home, as I said before, and nor would the increase in racist attacks etc. in the wake of the referendum result be reversed, plus a considerable number of angry people would suddenly become much angrier. We can make whatever claims we like about the referendum having been rigged but, however true those claims might be, it's necessary to deal with the situation as it is, as it has developed, and not what the situation would have been if the Leave campaign had told the truth, if there hadn't been "Russian interference" or whatever. That's all spilt milk now. For such reasons, and not as a result of personal preference, I think that if there's to be no second referendum there needs to be something that could be represented as Britain leaving the EU while on the other hand leaving things like the customs union in place. No conceivable Tory government is going to do that because it would require a considerable extension of Britain's membership in order to start negotiations again from scratch. So the choice in any upcoming election is pretty clear I would say.

I agree with all of that; all that I would add is that the anger of which you write is, I think, likely to well up whatever the outcome, be it revocation of Article 50 and an end to Brexit, or a no-deal Brexit, or an inclusive General Election in which no party wins a majority and no two or three of them can agree to form a coalition (I didn't include Brexit with a deal as that seems to be off the table).

[ahinton]

I would say that there hasn't in my lifetime been a clearer difference between the kinds of policies the different parties are advocating (with the exception of the Tories and Faragists who are becoming increasingly hard to tell apart).

It was a catastrophic mistake to call the Brexit referendum. Nevertheless the vote did go in favour of Leave, by no means the first time people have voted against their own interests. Any kind of Brexit is going to bring disadvantages, although some kinds might also have advantages in terms of freeing up a future government's hands for things like renationalisation. Those kinds are of course not going to be considered by a Tory government, whose priorities lie much more clearly in the direction of selling off the country's remaining public assets in a desperate trade deal with the USA. As I said in an earlier post, if a future government is not going to get away with cancelling Brexit altogether, or holding a second referendum which might deliver the same result as the first, or an even less decisive one, then the obvious thing to do would be to go ahead with a kind of Brexit (like those being discussed in the early days after the referendum) would "honour the result" with the minimum disruption. Again, no Tory government is going to do this, and it's been the kind of course that Corbyn has been steering all along, even leaving aside all the other anti-austerity policies an incoming Labour government would institute. So all of this seems to be fairly clear to me. And whether or not a Labour government is the result of the coming months, I have the feeling that the perspective of history will increasingly show that Corbyn has all along played a difficult hand as well as was humanly possible.

That's all very well but I don't see a General Election as likely to achieve anything conclusive for any party and so the instability remains until and unless that situation might change. I also imagine that the requisite two-thirds majority in favour of one will not be achieved today, one reason being the perceived risk (small as it might be) that the Tories do what they've undertaken not to do following one and try to form a coalition with the Brexit Party; this risk will not likely arise, however, should the Tories perform very badly and the Brexit Party fails to live up to its EU election success, each of which is arguably a distinct possibility.

[Serial_Apologist]

Corbyn would dearly love Brexit to just go away.

But it won’t and. I think this may (finally) be dawning on him.

I think all opposition parties are coming to the realisation that the only way they can credibly resolve this impasse is by having a Second Referendum wiht Remain as an option and (preferably) with No Deal not an option.

That wouldn’t be my preference (I’d sooner revoke) but, as politicians, they will feel bound to show some obeisance to the blundering mistake made by one of their number (Cameron the Fatuous).

Still, there are plenty of Essex plumbers and Wigan flower-sellers who don’t care if they end up in the gutter, because they ‘just want to be free, innit?’

Hearing a nice smiling customer in St Sprees this morning tell us that "I'm sure everything will turn out all right once we're out - after all, we managed in the war" reminded me how much such deluded thinking sees the UK in terms of the no longer existant empire it could always fall back on in an emergency, backed up with its huge but no longer existant navy and airforce.

[Serial_Apologist]

I would say that there hasn't in my lifetime been a clearer difference between the kinds of policies the different parties are advocating (with the exception of the Tories and Faragists who are becoming increasingly hard to tell apart).

It was a catastrophic mistake to call the Brexit referendum. Nevertheless the vote did go in favour of Leave, by no means the first time people have voted against their own interests. Any kind of Brexit is going to bring disadvantages, although some kinds might also have advantages in terms of freeing up a future government's hands for things like renationalisation. Those kinds are of course not going to be considered by a Tory government, whose priorities lie much more clearly in the direction of selling off the country's remaining public assets in a desperate trade deal with the USA. As I said in an earlier post, if a future government is not going to get away with cancelling Brexit altogether, or holding a second referendum which might deliver the same result as the first, or an even less decisive one, then the obvious thing to do would be to go ahead with a kind of Brexit (like those being discussed in the early days after the referendum) would "honour the result" with the minimum disruption. Again, no Tory government is going to do this, and it's been the kind of course that Corbyn has been steering all along, even leaving aside all the other anti-austerity policies an incoming Labour government would institute. So all of this seems to be fairly clear to me. And whether or not a Labour government is the result of the coming months, I have the feeling that the perspective of history will increasingly show that Corbyn has all along played a difficult hand as well as was humanly possible.

This is how I see Corbyn's position too - it's shared by me.

[eighthobstruction]

That's all very well but I don't see a General Election as likely to achieve anything conclusive for any party and so the instability \

....i think there is going to be instability beyond that which can be forseen....and it will not necessarily be seen on the streets and Media....it will be quietly happening in the homes of the unemployed and mental health facilities, food banks....it will be sad and grey and dreadfully dreadfully boring....it has all been played out like a parlour game .....