The Dictatorship of the Etonariat

[gurnemanz]

The Tory Party can't be forgiven for what the referendum has done to our country. Whichever way the cards fall, we are all losers.

[teamsaint]

Labour may have a leadership that is comfortable with leaving with a deal, but it is a remain party at heart, and that will end up being the more significant part of their stance. Remainers really ought to have no thought of doing anything other than voting labour in seats where it has the best chance of beating a tory, because that is the remainers’ best hope of either a soft brexit, or no brexit.

Labour is going to have to box very clever as to the timing of the next election, but when it does happen, they still have a lot of cards to play, despite the poor poll showing at present.

[Serial_Apologist]

So, er, it seems as though Labour may refuse to vote for a GE, assuming they win the no deal bill vote.

Which leaves things, if it were possible, even more confused.

Doesn’t it?

Well that wasn't left clear. I think Labour should say "bring it on" if Johnson is forced into an election. Given that no time will be left to re-negotiate May's agreement, in the context of announcing its programme to implement its new policies Labour would then host a new referendum on its 3 clearly argued options - backstop; no deal; remain. My betting is that based on the popularity of the new programme a majority would go for remain.

[Serial_Apologist]

I would imagine that the thinking behind refusing to vote for an election on 14 October (which is what seems to be on offer) is that it would be preferable to let the 31 October deadline pass with no Brexit, watch the Tories tear themselves to pieces, and then win an election with a larger majority than might otherwise be the case. That's just a guess off the top of my head though; no doubt there are people who've thought this through more thoroughly and with more knowledge and insight than me. I very much hope we don't have to wait too long for an election though.

Yes, that's possible.

[Serial_Apologist]

Labour may have a leadership that is comfortable with leaving with a deal, but it is a remain party at heart, and that will end up being the more significant part of their stance. Remainers really ought to have no thought of doing anything other than voting labour in seats where it has the best chance of beating a tory, because that is the remainers’ best hope of either a soft brexit, or no brexit.

Labour is going to have to box very clever as to the timing of the next election, but when it does happen, they still have a lot of cards to play, despite the poor poll showing at present.

Such a position would be in line with my own that for all the rhetoric about economic and political sovereignty (which is becoming more and more threadbare with each passing day) remaining is the preferable option, given that at least some of the progressive legislation fought for over decades on workers rights and environmental protection are enshrined in EU law, not to mention obvious issues of transportation distances in our carbon footprint age, and the unlikelihood of gaining trading agreements outside the EU when most of these have already been mopped up by other powers that got in there earlier. As things are the LibDems and Scots Nats seem the only people still advocating reform of the EU.

[Serial_Apologist]

By the way tonight's Channel 4 and 5 resortings to studio debates a la Questiontime with audience interjections, together with Paxman's programme asking what is wrong with today's politicians, were weak affairs that just illustrated the mainstream broadcasting media's complicity in the general public's ill-informed confusion over a lot more than Brexit. I'll try and be more specific tomorrow, having taken a few notes. Time to hit the sack!

[kernelbogey]

The Tory Party can't be forgiven for what the referendum has done to our country. Whichever way the cards fall, we are all losers.

[ahinton]

The Tory Party can't be forgiven for what the referendum has done to our country. Whichever way the cards fall, we are all losers.

That's very true but extends to any General Election that might be called, for no party is likely to wione and I would be unsurprised if no two (or it might even need to be three) parties will be able to agree to form a coalition, so we will all lose also because UK will increasingly look to be ungovernable because its electorate cannot and/or will not give any party a mandate to govern.

[MrGongGong]

Labour may have a leadership that is comfortable with leaving with a deal, but it is a remain party at heart, and that will end up being the more significant part of their stance. Remainers really ought to have no thought of doing anything other than voting labour in seats where it has the best chance of beating a tory, because that is the remainers’ best hope of either a soft brexit, or no brexit.

Labour is going to have to box very clever as to the timing of the next election, but when it does happen, they still have a lot of cards to play, despite the poor poll showing at present.

You must be joking
The Labour party is led by a lifetime opponent of the EU and is complicit in the whole mess by going along with it in the first place. Then, voting for it repeatedly.

Every Labour politician I hear on the radio starts off by saying "we need to respect the result of the referendum"
erm, no we don't, it was fundamentally flawed and dishonest and the role of REPRESENTATIVES is to represent not obey the whims of those who vote for them.
I also hear MPs saying that they have been "instructed" by the minority of the population who voted for it...

Furthermore a fantasy "soft Brexit" still means we lose our rights and freedoms for WHAT ?

The Labour party is part of the problem, trying to blame everything on the "evil Tories" is simply doing the whole "big boy did it and ran away" routine again.

Who we can actually vote FOR is anyones guess

[ahinton]

You must be joking
The Labour party is led by a lifetime opponent of the EU and is complicit in the whole mess by going along with it in the first place. Then, voting for it repeatedly.

Every Labour politician I hear on the radio starts off by saying "we need to respect the result of the referendum"
erm, no we don't, it was fundamentally flawed and dishonest and the role of REPRESENTATIVES is to represent not obey the whims of those who vote for them.
I also hear MPs saying that they have been "instructed" by the minority of the population who voted for it...

Furthermore a fantasy "soft Brexit" still means we lose our rights and freedoms for WHAT ?

The Labour party is part of the problem, trying to blame everything on the "evil Tories" is simply doing the whole "big boy did it and ran away" routine again.

Who we can actually vote FOR is anyones guess

Indeed so but, if voting for any party results in no party achieving a majority, a GE will have produced nothing other than expense, heightened acrimony and the maintenance of a status quo without the status.

[Bryn]

You must be joking
The Labour party is led by a lifetime opponent of the EU and is complicit in the whole mess by going along with it in the first place. Then, voting for it repeatedly.

Every Labour politician I hear on the radio starts off by saying "we need to respect the result of the referendum"
erm, no we don't, it was fundamentally flawed and dishonest and the role of REPRESENTATIVES is to represent not obey the whims of those who vote for them.
I also hear MPs saying that they have been "instructed" by the minority of the population who voted for it...

Furthermore a fantasy "soft Brexit" still means we lose our rights and freedoms for WHAT ?

The Labour party is part of the problem, trying to blame everything on the "evil Tories" is simply doing the whole "big boy did it and ran away" routine again.

Who we can actually vote FOR is anyones guess

Agreed in every particular. The only political organisation I ever actually joined (though even then, only for a couple of years or so, used to have a catchphrase, "Labour, Tory, two wings of a single bird of prey".

[MrGongGong]

Indeed so but, if voting for any party results in no party achieving a majority, a GE will have produced nothing other than expense, heightened acrimony and the maintenance of a status quo without the status.

Indeed
Though maybe a government that realises that it doesn't have a mandate to do anything that changes our international relationships would be a good start IMV

But, where I live, voting is a total waste of time.
I have only voted FOR a political party twice, having voted AGAINST many times.

[LMcD]

Indeed
Though maybe a government that realises that it doesn't have a mandate to do anything that changes our international relationships would be a good start IMV

But, where I live, voting is a total waste of time.
I have only voted FOR a political party twice, having voted AGAINST many times.

Same here, subject to replacing 'twice' with 'once' - and that was in a local council election. I'm tempted to decide to vote (subject to my choice not being racist, homophobic or whatever) on whichever candidate looks like coming last, which probably means the Green Party if they're fielding one.
Philip Hammond came as close as he probably ever will to incandescent fury in the 0810 interview on 'Today'.
I agree completely with gurnemanz about the baleful consequences of that damned referendum. Cameron was running scared of the Brexiteers and Johnson is doing the same.

[ahinton]

Indeed
Though maybe a government that realises that it doesn't have a mandate to do anything that changes our international relationships would be a good start IMV]

But the point here is that, should a GE produce no party or coalition of parties with a mandate to govern, there will BE no such government will have to be held - and maybe another and another until such time as the deadlock can be broken.

But, where I live, voting is a total waste of time.

Where I live, the Tory candidate's majority is lifted somewhat because some Labour supporters vote for him because of the high regard in which he is held as a constituency MP.

[ahinton]

Philip Hammond came as close as he probably ever will to incandescent fury in the 0810 interview on 'Today'.

Indeed so; I listened to that myself and could not help but note that PH is not one customarily given to incandescent fury! I fear that he may be wrong on one thing, though and that is that, should the sacked Sonia Khan take her case to an employment tribunal, she would win it; she was not merely sacked but escorted from the building by armed police, which fact would in ordinary circumstances be expected to assist her case but, in this instance, I feel sure that the government would dictate to the employment tribunal that it must dismiss her case hands down and, should it fail to comply with such an order, it would take steps to dismiss that employment tribunal.