The Dictatorship of the Etonariat

[MrGongGong]

I think WE is Weary England and NOT is Never Overlook Trotsky.

No need to be so picky

[MrGongGong]

Business and trade are fundamental to the whole thing, whether we like it or not.The single market and customs union are sacrosanct. There are significant trade ( and other) barriers with third countries.
And the governments individual countries negotiate within the EU for what they want.
The collaborative bits follow on from the results of those negotiations.

I think (again) that one of the main problems is that UK governments think it's this way round
whereas other people have different priorities and think that it's the other way round

Which is not to say that trade isn't important
but it's NOT what drives everything

[Richard Barrett]

collaborations aren't "business deals "

Well, as far as capitalist governments are concerned, yes they are. Sure there's a bit of cultural icing on top to make them look more palatable but the EU was set up as a way of entrenching neoliberal ideology on a scale that could compete with other world powers, and so it remains. Remaining in the EU would of course be preferable for those of our profession and others, but let's not allow that to obscure the facts.

[ahinton]

One of the fundamental problems with the whole thing IMV is the way that a collaborative relationship is seen as some kind of "buisiness" deal and "negotiation" is some kind of battle to get what WE want.

It's NOT

It is AND it isn't; negotiations about the/a Single Market, the/a Customs Union, tariffs and even the border arrangements between NI and Ireland ARE all about business deals because trade is at the heart of them all and, because there are two sides to such negotiations, neither can avoid battling for what it wants, albeit in the hope that some kind of compromise acceptable to both sides might be reached as a consequence of them; that said, had UK not promised, launchd and conducted a referendum on its continued EU membership, there wouldn't BE two sides or any need to negotiate anything, so any view on this must take on board the fact that the impetus for all of this has come from UK, not from both sides. There are other considerations besides commercial ones, of course, but there can be no pushing to one side that much of what has required negotiation is trade related.

[MrGongGong]

It is AND it isn't; negotiations about the/a Single Market, the/a Customs Union, tariffs and even the border arrangements between NI and Ireland ARE all about business deals because trade is at the heart of them all and, because there are two sides to such negotiations, neither can avoid battling for what it wants, albeit in the hope that some kind of compromise acceptable to both sides might be reached as a consequence of them; that said, had UK not promised, launchd and conducted a referendum on its continued EU membership, there wouldn't BE two sides or any need to negotiate anything, so any view on this must take on board the fact that the impetus for all of this has come from UK, not from both sides. There are other considerations besides commercial ones, of course, but there can be no pushing to one side that much of what has required negotiation is trade related.

None of the people involved give a sh*t about the folks in NI
they are quite happy to see the return of the violence of the 1970's so they can have their precious "deal"

[ahinton]

Well, as far as capitalist governments are concerned, yes they are. Sure there's a bit of cultural icing on top to make them look more palatable but the EU was set up as a way of entrenching neoliberal ideology on a scale that could compete with other world powers, and so it remains. Remaining in the EU would of course be preferable for those of our profession and others, but let's not allow that to obscure the facts.

What you write in your second sentence is of course true but it is by no means the only reason why I supported Remain and would do so again were a second referendum to be held. That said, UK will have a capitalist government whether it remains within EU, leave EU with a deal or leave EU without a deal and EU itself is a group of 28 EU member states all of which have such governments, just as the wider Council of Europe is a group of 47 member states (including the 28 EU ones) all of which have such governments, but even states that ostensibly have non-capitalist governments are actually capitalist because they have trading arrangements with other states and do business deals with them; the only way that any state could operate a non-capitalist system would be to eschew all trade deals with other states and, even then business deals would still be done within them.

[ahinton]

None of the people involved give a sh*t about the folks in NI
they are quite happy to see the return of the violence of the 1970's so they can have their precious "deal"

I agree that most of those trying to push for a no-deal Brexit have an uncaring attitude towards the folks in NI. The only answer, it seems to me, would be for NI to apply to join the rest of Ireland and leave UK and the fact that NI voted to remain in EU but Westminster has imposed the opposite outcome on it does seem to be adding at least some fuel to the desire of certain people in NI to consider such a possibility but, of course, there's sadly a great deal against it. The violence to which you refer seems in any case to be rearing itself again, albeit thankfully not (yet) on the scale that was witnessed in the 1970s but, most of those prepared to commit such acts of violence today claim to do so as a means of reuniting Ireland; not only is this absolutely NOT the way to achieve this end, it is also the case that the wind would be taken out of their sails were such reunification to be agreed between the two entities and achieved by peaceful means. Eveyone whom I know who is from and/or lives in NI considers him/herself "Irish".

[MrGongGong]

it is also the case that the wind would be taken out of their sails were such reunification to be agreed between the two entities and achieved by peaceful means. Eveyone whom I know who is from and/or lives in NI considers him/herself "Irish".

I'm not sure that we are most at threat from those who would seek a united Ireland or those who want to remain British ?
There is so much b*llshit around the way that politicians talk about not having different rules for NI anyway. I suggest they buy a car in NI and then try taxing it in England to dicover that NI isn't part of the UK for that ... and there are probably many many more examples.

The people of NI (and Scotland) who voted (and there again on R4 we had a government minister saying that "the majority of people in the UK voted to leave" without being taken to task or cut off for lying!) wanted to stay in the EU. I guess their views don't matter...

[muzzer]

I find possibly the most depressing aspect of the whole process to date has been the dumbfounded ignorance of most MPs about the legal basis of our membership of the EU and trading relationship with it. Nearly all of them have been learning piecemeal. Second only to the ignorance of the wider populace. But that’s how we’ve ended up where we are.

[muzzer]

And please may I add that I think the discussion on this thread has been heartening in its temperate tone.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And please may I add that I think the discussion on this thread has been heartening in its temperate tone.

[gurnemanz]

And please may I add that I think the discussion on this thread has been heartening in its temperate tone.

Wasn't throat-slitting mentioned at one point?

[Bryn]

Wasn't throat-slitting mentioned at one point?

In the spirit of Jo Brand's acid remark, I think/hope.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes, I know I should pay attention and keep up, but what is the 'WA'? (Presumably not the Woyal Assent).

Posh parents at the school I went to had to move house - they needed a larger garage to accommodate their wagwah! True!!

[cloughie]

Wasn't throat-slitting mentioned at one point?

...and Conchis wanting to nuke half the land!