The Dictatorship of the Etonariat

[Conchis]

Gosh, I've been accused of many heinous things but "liberal" is a first.

edit: There seems to be a widely held opinion that discussing politics is somehow "bad form". It's no wonder therefore that so many people get so little practise in discussing it that they seemingly aren't able to do so in a rational and articulate way. That's also IMO one of the phenomena leading directly towards the current crisis. anyway, I'm just going to register here that I have strong feelings on the issue at hand and leave it at that, and continue talking about it elsewhere. This thread will no doubt be closed down fairly soon anyway! (and what does that imply?)

I know you’re not a liberal (and I’m CERTAINLY not) but the impression I get is that most people on this forum are basically liberal with small if not a large L and their contributions on here evince the limitations of the liberal mindset: a belief that if we play fair, our opponents, impressed by the example we set, will play fair, too. The current leader of the British party with the word ‘liberal’ in its title is an almost perfect example of this constipated and terminally ineffectual way of doing things, and Jeremy Corbyn, who clearly wishes Brexit would just go away so he can focus on the things that matter, is almost as bad, as he doesn’t realise that Brexit is crucial to ‘the things that matter.’

The British Conservative Party is the only radical party operating in British politics at the moment - its radicalism encompasse the novel idea that people should work until seventy-five, or until they die, without receiving the pension they’ve been paying into for all their working lives; that teachers should be able to use an undefined ‘reasonable force’ in maintaining ‘class-room discpline’, and that a putative trade deal with a far away country ruled by a fascist in all but name is far more important than the lives of vulnerable people.

By contrast, what is the ‘liberal’ or even the ‘hard’ left suggesting? I’ve no idea, because all it does is bleat about ‘Tory wickedness.’

What Britain needs is a left-wing government that will not shirk from deploying right wing methods: I’m afraid that does actually mean slitting peoples’ throats rather than attempting to ‘persuade’ them. Surely we’ve realised by now that some peopel (and you can see these bovine numbskulls interviewed on the vox pop segments on tv) are beyond persuasion?


In accordance with what seems to be ‘house policy’, this post will either be deleted or severely edited.

[Cockney Sparrow]

........ In accordance with what seems to be ‘house policy’, this post will either be deleted or severely edited.

When I worked, we interviewed people and some files were marked "Morning interviews only, may not turn up until 11:00". I wondered if your startlingly violent post last night was an evening manifestation of your disposition. Evidently not........

p.s. I very much agree with the title of the thread, and the sentiments of many posts. It will be a shame if this post ends up locked - given that the coming weeks will affect all of us and our families, some quite possibly severely, and the situation is worthy of discussion and sharing of information - even here.

[ahinton]

It isn't a total waste of time at all, it's a way of getting an idea of how people feel about this issue which hopefully will embolden those who actually can do something about it; it's the only way that anyone's voice is going to be heard at this point; it's a way of expressing solidarity with one's fellow human beings; just for starters.

I agree - as, it would seem do at least 1.3m others over a period of just one day (and it has the rest of six months to run); I suppose that the irony that might persuade some that it's a waste of time is that the undertaking provided by the Parliamentary petition system that any such petition that attracts in excess of 100K signatures will be debated in Parliament (unless it's a matter of national security), yet Parliament can't do that while it's prorogued...

[ahinton]

Some good may come of this mess after all!

I'm neither staunchly pro-or anti-monarchist but don't see the UK monarchy outlasting its present incumbent for long in any case; HM the Queen's powers, which she has in any case rarely exercised in any material way, were reduced under the 2011 Fixed Term Parliament Act (against which, curiously, the seemingly ubiquitous self-publicist Jacob Rees-Mogg apparently voted at the time).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Nothing to do with "bad form" - everything to do with people leaving the Forum because of the bad feeling caused on the Political Threads, which sadly happens with each such discussion. And to do with the requirement of the Hosts (that collection of "angry, impotent liberals" who simultaneously manage to behave like Tsarist Russians), to keep close watch on what is posted - and to respond when the Complaints start arriving in our (private, home) e-Mails (oooh, goody: more have arrived since I started writing this post!).

Every time a "Political" Thread begins, my heart sinks - because the record on the Forum is ... "consistent": people begin reasonably, set up opposing viewpoints, and stick to them no matter what, to the point where the mud starts to be slung. I do not see how it could be otherwise on a Forum such as this, "run" by volunteers who endeavour to maintain as strictly unbiased an attitude as possible - especially about a topic as polarising as Brexit and the political machinations of the toxic Tory party. But I let the Threads run each time in the hope that maybe, just maybe this time it will run well - there will be an expression of views (or even just a basic expression of anger from impotent liberals) that won't descend into serious acrimony - again. When it does so descend, that's when it gets closed.

The Hosts' job is to maintain and expand membership - political Threads lose members. Simple as ...

[antongould]

Nothing to do with "bad form" - everything to do with people leaving the Forum because of the bad feeling caused on the Political Threads, which sadly happens with each such discussion. And to do with the requirement of the Hosts (that collection of "angry, impotent liberals" who simultaneously manage to behave like Tsarist Russians), to keep close watch on what is posted - and to respond when the Complaints start arriving in our (private, home) e-Mails (oooh, goody: more have arrived since I started writing this post!).

Every time a "Political" Thread begins, my heart sinks - because the record on the Forum is ... "consistent": people begin reasonably, set up opposing viewpoints, and stick to them no matter what, to the point where the mud starts to be slung. I do not see how it could be otherwise on a Forum such as this, "run" by volunteers who endeavour to maintain as strictly unbiased an attitude as possible - especially about a topic as polarising as Brexit and the political machinations of the toxic Tory party. But I let the Threads run each time in the hope that maybe, just maybe this time it will run well - there will be an expression of views (or even just a basic expression of anger from impotent liberals) that won't descend into serious acrimony - again. When it does so descend, that's when it gets closed.

The Hosts' job is to maintain and expand membership - political Threads lose members. Simple as ...

Well said boss ....... only IMVVHO of course ....

[Bryn]

Well said boss ....... only IMVVHO of course ....

How dare you suggest that it it only IYVVHO?!

[Nick Armstrong]

Nothing to do with "bad form" - everything to do with people leaving the Forum because of the bad feeling caused on the Political Threads, which sadly happens with each such discussion. And to do with the requirement of the Hosts (that collection of "angry, impotent liberals" who simultaneously manage to behave like Tsarist Russians), to keep close watch on what is posted - and to respond when the Complaints start arriving in our (private, home) e-Mails (oooh, goody: more have arrived since I started writing this post!).

Every time a "Political" Thread begins, my heart sinks - because the record on the Forum is ... "consistent": people begin reasonably, set up opposing viewpoints, and stick to them no matter what, to the point where the mud starts to be slung. I do not see how it could be otherwise on a Forum such as this, "run" by volunteers who endeavour to maintain as strictly unbiased an attitude as possible - especially about a topic as polarising as Brexit and the political machinations of the toxic Tory party. But I let the Threads run each time in the hope that maybe, just maybe this time it will run well - there will be an expression of views (or even just a basic expression of anger from impotent liberals) that won't descend into serious acrimony - again. When it does so descend, that's when it gets closed.

The Hosts' job is to maintain and expand membership - political Threads lose members. Simple as ...

[antongould]

How dare you suggest that it it only IYVVHO?!

Sorry I shall apply for a sub editor’s job on the Grauniad ....

[CGR]

Anti-Brexiteers have forced him into a corner by doing everything possible to prevent Britain leaving. I fear more from the fallout of not upholding the Brexit vote.

Yep. Agree with that.

They are more interested in stopping Brexit than anything else.

[gurnemanz]

If I were on holiday trying to take it easy and Jacob Rees-Mogg knocked on the gate of my castle with important business I would be tempted to use the two-word phrase which Hugh Grant gave to Boris Johnson on Twitter yesterday.

[oddoneout]

Nothing to do with "bad form" - everything to do with people leaving the Forum because of the bad feeling caused on the Political Threads, which sadly happens with each such discussion. And to do with the requirement of the Hosts (that collection of "angry, impotent liberals" who simultaneously manage to behave like Tsarist Russians), to keep close watch on what is posted - and to respond when the Complaints start arriving in our (private, home) e-Mails (oooh, goody: more have arrived since I started writing this post!).

Every time a "Political" Thread begins, my heart sinks - because the record on the Forum is ... "consistent": people begin reasonably, set up opposing viewpoints, and stick to them no matter what, to the point where the mud starts to be slung. I do not see how it could be otherwise on a Forum such as this, "run" by volunteers who endeavour to maintain as strictly unbiased an attitude as possible - especially about a topic as polarising as Brexit and the political machinations of the toxic Tory party. But I let the Threads run each time in the hope that maybe, just maybe this time it will run well - there will be an expression of views (or even just a basic expression of anger from impotent liberals) that won't descend into serious acrimony - again. When it does so descend, that's when it gets closed.

The Hosts' job is to maintain and expand membership - political Threads lose members. Simple as ...

I wouldn't leave the forum because of political threads gone rogue, but I do stop reading them once discussion moves to trading thinly(or not) disguised insults between one or two individuals, not least because I have found there is no point at that stage of trying to get back to discussion of the issue rather than the bad-tempered round of already aired opinions.
It's a pity because I find the different viewpoints of forum members useful in enabling me to take a more informed and wider view of the topics of the day.

[CGR]

Bear in mind that approximately 63% of the electorate did not vote to leave the European Union. 37% of the electorate (less than 27% of the population) voting to leave does not constitute 'the will of the people'.

That's the same with all votes. If they cannot be bothered to vote, that's their choice. The important point is that Leave won with a clear majority of over 1.28 million votes.
That was followed up with the majority of 461 to 89 in the House of Commons in favour of Article 50 in December 2016 and then the passing of the EU Withdrawal Act in 2017 on a similarly large majority.

[DracoM]

Nothing to do with "bad form" - everything to do with people leaving the Forum because of the bad feeling caused on the Political Threads, which sadly happens with each such discussion. And to do with the requirement of the Hosts (that collection of "angry, impotent liberals" who simultaneously manage to behave like Tsarist Russians), to keep close watch on what is posted - and to respond when the Complaints start arriving in our (private, home) e-Mails (oooh, goody: more have arrived since I started writing this post!).

Every time a "Political" Thread begins, my heart sinks - because the record on the Forum is ... "consistent": people begin reasonably, set up opposing viewpoints, and stick to them no matter what, to the point where the mud starts to be slung. I do not see how it could be otherwise on a Forum such as this, "run" by volunteers who endeavour to maintain as strictly unbiased an attitude as possible - especially about a topic as polarising as Brexit and the political machinations of the toxic Tory party. But I let the Threads run each time in the hope that maybe, just maybe this time it will run well - there will be an expression of views (or even just a basic expression of anger from impotent liberals) that won't descend into serious acrimony - again. When it does so descend, that's when it gets closed.

The Hosts' job is to maintain and expand membership - political Threads lose members. Simple as ...

Completely agree.

[Bryn]

That's the same with all votes. If they cannot be bothered to vote, that's their choice. The important point is that Leave won with a clear majority of over 1.28 million votes.
That was followed up with the majority of 461 to 89 in the House of Commons in favour of Article 50 in December 2016 and then the passing of the EU Withdrawal Act in 2017 on a similarly large majority.

Which in no way treats with my point regarding the bogus claims to 'will of the people'.