The Dictatorship of the Etonariat

[Serial_Apologist]

....did you watch the prog about George Soros....interesting....https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...bal-mastermind

....the Rubbish that RB writes about is laid out....

No I haven't. I've wondered if Soros is a bit of a diversion in all this. Perhaps I should. Thanks, eighth.

[Pianorak]

What's Jo Swinson playing at? First she objects to Corbyn heading a temporary government, now she wants nothing less than Remain – which is fine by me, except it might help Boris to win the next GE, unless Labour Conference endorses Remain without any other option. Confused.

[ahinton]

I'm thinking of the Tory leavers, now at the helm, who will have advantage of a viagra equivalence boost if the Farage tells his support base they are to throw their support in with BoJo.

OK, but I'm also unconvinced that the Brexit Party will repeat the successes that it achieved in the EU elections earlier this year, most of which came from disaffected UKIP voters anyway; if it gains few seats in the next GE (whenever that might be), it won't likely help that cause much.

[Richard Barrett]

What's Jo Swinson playing at?

I have the feeling that (as with Clegg) the main issue is to wield power post-election without having to take the blame for the nasty parts. As Marx said, "these are my principles. And if you don't like them - I have others!" (Groucho not Karl of course)

[Serial_Apologist]

What's Jo Swinson playing at? First she objects to Corbyn heading a temporary government, now she wants nothing less than Remain – which is fine by me, except it might help Boris to win the next GE, unless Labour Conference endorses Remain without any other option. Confused.

While my own view is that Ms Swinson and the Liberals are playing their sectarian card, this doesn't help explain Labour's position, insofar as this is being presented on the news, frankly.

The way I understood Labour's position, as of yesterday, is that were the party to win a general election, they would organise a new EU referendum with three choices: remain, leave with no deal, or accept any improvement deal they (Labour in power) are able to get out of the EU - none of which would be recommended or not, thus effectively re-assuring the traditional Labour voter they are not betraying the 2016 leaver vote.

[DracoM]

Sounds a bit too sensible to me!

[ardcarp]

I watched Part 2 of The Rise of the Nazis on BBC2 last night. Some emphasis is being laid on current relevance by the makers of this documentary, and one of the points made was that a disillusioned German working class flocked to Hitler in 1932 on a tide of allegations of the Communist Party preparing a coup from the top establishment and its press - for which there was in fact no material evidence - coupled with how they used Himmler's supposed charisma to gain support, despite the fact that he had offered no programme or policy platform other than "making Germany great agaiin". Well, the Nazis had to make maximum use of him, hadn't they? And the parallels are self-explanatory. A third point made, that democracy was still a new concept in 1932, clearly doesn't apply to our own time; but, observing the closed minds now having their day over Brexit, I am nevertheless getting a strong feeling of what it must have been like to have been in Germany at that stage. All of a sudden a single issue is being fetishised as some proving ground regarding "the People's" feelings about democracy, overlooking the entire complex of issues embraced in remaining or leaving which can only be resolved in a general election. I can't help wondering how many of those now proclaiming their faith in British sovereignty, while never being questioned by interviewers what precisely they mean by it, ever bothered to turn up to vote in pre-Brexit general elections, though I admit to having no evidence that they are offloading their guilt onto their opponents to prove this point.

I watched it too, and the parallels were obvious and scary.

Just been listening to some Joe-public interviewees on a news programme. Some can't even grasp the negative semantics of the word 'Brexit', e.g. "We just want to get on with it and leave Brexit". God help us. What box are they going to tick?

[eighthobstruction]

No I haven't. I've wondered if Soros is a bit of a diversion in all this. Perhaps I should. Thanks, eighth.

....it's certaionly about it being a diversion on the whole....it's also about the vitriol and bile and fake stuff of internet blogspots....

[muzzer]

I watched Part 2 of The Rise of the Nazis on BBC2 last night. Some emphasis is being laid on current relevance by the makers of this documentary, and one of the points made was that a disillusioned German working class flocked to Hitler in 1932 on a tide of allegations of the Communist Party preparing a coup from the top establishment and its press - for which there was in fact no material evidence - coupled with how they used Himmler's supposed charisma to gain support, despite the fact that he had offered no programme or policy platform other than "making Germany great agaiin". Well, the Nazis had to make maximum use of him, hadn't they? And the parallels are self-explanatory. A third point made, that democracy was still a new concept in 1932, clearly doesn't apply to our own time; but, observing the closed minds now having their day over Brexit, I am nevertheless getting a strong feeling of what it must have been like to have been in Germany at that stage. All of a sudden a single issue is being fetishised as some proving ground regarding "the People's" feelings about democracy, overlooking the entire complex of issues embraced in remaining or leaving which can only be resolved in a general election. I can't help wondering how many of those now proclaiming their faith in British sovereignty, while never being questioned by interviewers what precisely they mean by it, ever bothered to turn up to vote in pre-Brexit general elections, though I admit to having no evidence that they are offloading their guilt onto their opponents to prove this point.

Hear hear.

[teamsaint]

Probably

My misreading .... corrected by deletion

(though my comment about the "real world" still stands for those who read it before it went )

No idea what you said, but just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that business is the real world, and other areas of activity aren't.....just that there is real business ( such as trying to make a living in music) and , well, not so real "business"........

[Dave2002]

All of a sudden a single issue is being fetishised as some proving ground regarding "the People's" feelings about democracy, overlooking the entire complex of issues embraced in remaining or leaving which can only be resolved in a general election.

Perhaps I take issues with that. A GE based on one issue would effectively be very similar to a referendum, and as we are beginning to see, the “desired” outcomes based on a referendum result may not be achievable. GEs are usually not just centred on one single issue, but a collection. The delivered outcomes of a GE may also be unachievable, though sometimes there may be an “improvement” in one direction which can be hailed as a “success”, even if other factors do not improve as much or actually get worse.

[burning dog]

]

A General Election held overwhelmingly on one issue is very different from a referendum IMO .

The losers would likely get 250 plus seats in Parliament and an official Leader of the Opposition, so ample opportunity to scrutinise and debate legislation with the chance to defeat or amend Bills if they muster enough support on the winning sides back benches.

The losers can't be dismissed, as they have been by many avid Brexiteers. I've heard endlesslessy about the "holy" 17 milion as they seemed to be regarded by "Leaver" zealots. "The biggest madate ever achieved in this country" I've also heard. If Leave 2019 is the biggest, the second biggest, by a narrow margin, must be the 16 million who voted remain.

[Frances_iom]

I watched it too, and the parallels were obvious and scary. ...

I've posting this here for some time inc pre referendum - don't forget that the manufacturing/mining areas (ie most north of Watford) was left to stew in misery by Thatcher + her backers as reasonably paid, but thought to be secure, jobs disappeared with the best offer being that of working in a call centre with the social connectivity being ripped apart followed by 10 years of Tory cuts that were mostly aimed at the one-time working class - the EU which is seen as a key player in Scotland was detested by many Tories whose mouthpieces regaled their deluded readers with antiEU stories (some invented by BJ himself) - now they have the external enemy which only needed a demagogue to whip up the masses to give the reason for just the one 'enabling bill' to allow a true dictatorship to emerge.

[Serial_Apologist]

Perhaps I take issues with that. A GE based on one issue would effectively be very similar to a referendum, and as we are beginning to see, the “desired” outcomes based on a referendum result may not be achievable. GEs are usually not just centred on one single issue, but a collection. The delivered outcomes of a GE may also be unachievable, though sometimes there may be an “improvement” in one direction which can be hailed as a “success”, even if other factors do not improve as much or actually get worse.

Assuming I understand your point correctly, Dave, the point I was making, probably rather clumsily, is that a general election would be required to subsume all or as many of the policy objectives the entering parties wanted to include - as compared to a referendum such as this one, which - as many Brexiteers are endlessly repeating - had, or at any rate, stated only one objective, namely gaining consent on remaining or leaving the EU. What I'm wondering is, therefore, given the "menus" people would be voting on, could those arguing in the event of policies subsequently not carried out that they have been "betrayed" still substantiate their case? Their current "get out" is "we never said anything about wanting a deal or no deal"; I would argue that faced with entire policy platforms they would no longer be in a position to defend the claims that they are making, based as they are on such flimsy or non-existent evidence. Wouldn't it be an irony if, confronted with such a complex of issues, the percentage turn-out of electorate suddenly fell!

[Serial_Apologist]

I've posting this here for some time inc pre referendum - don't forget that the manufacturing/mining areas (ie most north of Watford) was left to stew in misery by Thatcher + her backers as reasonably paid, but thought to be secure, jobs disappeared with the best offer being that of working in a call centre with the social connectivity being ripped apart followed by 10 years of Tory cuts that were mostly aimed at the one-time working class - the EU which is seen as a key player in Scotland was detested by many Tories whose mouthpieces regaled their deluded readers with antiEU stories (some invented by BJ himself) - now they have the external enemy which only needed a demagogue to whip up the masses to give the reason for just the one 'enabling bill' to allow a true dictatorship to emerge.

Now that the very constitutionality of BoJo's prorogue has been overturned by Scotland's top court, and his advising of Her Maj put in question, any decision the Supreme Court comes to next Tuesday is going to be crucial in determining this or any future prime minister's ability to stymie democracy as we know it.