The Dictatorship of the Etonariat

[ahinton]

Cummings is doing the same job for Boris as Alistair Campbell did for Blair. Remember the "Dodgy Dossier" and the Iraq war !

Cummings ist der...

[Serial_Apologist]

Cummings ist der...

... dickhead.

Having thought this thread would be inundated with contributions today, I can only conclude that people must be refraining in fear of waking up to discover this whole thing has all just been one long bad dream. Either that, or the sheer improbability of events has left them totally speechless.

[Richard Barrett]

Having thought this thread would be inundated with contributions today, I can only conclude that people must be refraining in fear of waking up to discover this whole thing has all just been one long bad dream. Either that, or the sheer improbability of events has left them totally speechless.

Speaking for myself, I'm waiting until something actually substantive happens - so far in recent weeks everything has been a matter of manoeuvring, grandstanding, brinkmanship etc. I find it very difficult to see the bigger picture at the moment, which is no doubt exactly what Johnson et al. are aiming at.

[DracoM]

I am seriously scared by the subversion of the Parliamentary process, where that might lead us, who we are being led by, what THEIR motives are, an at every turn how we, the ordinary electorate, are being incrementally disenfranchised by backstairs, unelected, unscrutinised, not accountable figures like Cummings.

I am desperately hoping that enough Tories will be so appalled by what is happening in their name that whole tranches will vote for other parties, OR vote back in the very perhaps un-Toried rebels who are as appalled as I am.

So much of what I read, hear is ominously today reminiscent of the way both Communists and Fascists have each chosen to undermine and unpick the structure of democracies over the last century to suit dogmatic, ideological ends. Are we are seeing it again?

Does David Cameron have a lot to answer for or what.

[Frances_iom]

So much of what I read, hear is ominously today reminiscent of the way both Communists and Fascists have each chosen to undermine and unpick the structure of democracies over the last century to suit dogmatic, ideological ends. Are we are seeing it again?

Does David Cameron have a lot to answer for or what.

Yes - I pointed out on this board more than 3yrs ago that several aspects were too similar to early 30s Germany .
DC is I think the honourable fool in this who did not think through his action merely how best to get the UKIP thugs off his back - since then the Tory party has behaved like Hindenburg giving a decent name to the Kippers.

[Richard Barrett]

DC is I think the honourable fool in this who did not think through his action

I wouldn't say immediately legging it from the political arena in order to spend more time with his money could by any stretch be described as honourable!

[DracoM]

[MrGongGong]

[ahinton]

Speaking for myself, I'm waiting until something actually substantive happens - so far in recent weeks everything has been a matter of manoeuvring, grandstanding, brinkmanship etc. I find it very difficult to see the bigger picture at the moment, which is no doubt exactly what Johnson et al. are aiming at.

Absolutely right. I'm personally looking forward to nothing substantive happening because nothing substantive can happen whileUK gradually dissolves into nothing. I don;t want thatl of course but that is what I have come to expect.

[ahinton]

I am seriously scared by the subversion of the Parliamentary process, where that might lead us, who we are being led by, what THEIR motives are, an at every turn how we, the ordinary electorate, are being incrementally disenfranchised by backstairs, unelected, unscrutinised, not accountable figures like Cummings.

I am desperately hoping that enough Tories will be so appalled by what is happening in their name that whole tranches will vote for other parties, OR vote back in the very perhaps un-Toried rebels who are as appalled as I am.

So much of what I read, hear is ominously today reminiscent of the way both Communists and Fascists have each chosen to undermine and unpick the structure of democracies over the last century to suit dogmatic, ideological ends. Are we are seeing it again?

Does David Cameron have a lot to answer for or what.

He does, but I suspect that it's now far too late for any such answers to be provided even were he capable of providing them or willing to do so...

[Bella Kemp]

The Kemps - three generations - joined the march in London, which seemed like a pleasant stroll for the middle classes in the late summer sunshine. The younger ones joined in the chant of 'stop the coup!' and the older ones observed that perhaps not only the vociferous three year old, but also his parents, might pause to consider what exactly a coup is. Who would have thought that we Remainers could come to look so silly? The mainstream media gave us rather generous coverage with BBC reporters in all the major cities reporting on the alas rather low thousands in some cities and a few hundred in Belfast!
We observe that in poll after poll the Remainers exceed the Quitters by a reasonable margin - and yet it seems we have little chance of succeeding. Why? I submit because we have no leadership. The Quitters have the charismatic Mr Farage. We have no-one. Who knows what Mr Corbyn stands for? We have been betrayed by what used to be the main opposition party. With a real leader we would have succeeded. If Labour had always campaigned for Remain, in the same way as the Brexit party has campaigned for Leave, we would not now be facing Leave and another five years of Tory Rule. Now we can only hope that European leaders will be generous enough to grant us a fair deal. Our future will not be quite as awful as some have predicted, but oh gosh it could have been so much better.

[teamsaint]

So, er, it seems as though Labour may refuse to vote for a GE, assuming they win the no deal bill vote.

Which leaves things, if it were possible, even more confused.

Doesn’t it?

[Richard Barrett]

If Labour had always campaigned for Remain, in the same way as the Brexit party has campaigned for Leave

Two rather obvious points: (a) Labour did campaign for Remain in the referendum; (b) Labour is not a single-issue party like Farage's motley crew is.

[Serial_Apologist]

The Kemps - three generations - joined the march in London, which seemed like a pleasant stroll for the middle classes in the late summer sunshine. The younger ones joined in the chant of 'stop the coup!' and the older ones observed that perhaps not only the vociferous three year old, but also his parents, might pause to consider what exactly a coup is. Who would have thought that we Remainers could come to look so silly? The mainstream media gave us rather generous coverage with BBC reporters in all the major cities reporting on the alas rather low thousands in some cities and a few hundred in Belfast!
We observe that in poll after poll the Remainers exceed the Quitters by a reasonable margin - and yet it seems we have little chance of succeeding. Why? I submit because we have no leadership. The Quitters have the charismatic Mr Farage. We have no-one. Who knows what Mr Corbyn stands for? We have been betrayed by what used to be the main opposition party. With a real leader we would have succeeded. If Labour had always campaigned for Remain, in the same way as the Brexit party has campaigned for Leave, we would not now be facing Leave and another five years of Tory Rule. Now we can only hope that European leaders will be generous enough to grant us a fair deal. Our future will not be quite as awful as some have predicted, but oh gosh it could have been so much better.

Hmm. Can't agree with you there, Bella!

From what I understand about Corbyn's views on Brexit, to him the whole issue was one massive diversion from the urgent social and economic issues facing Labour supporters following 40 yers of neo-liberal economic orthodoxy, by both parties. However, having previous to his leadership gone along with whatever the result of the 2016 Referendum would be, and with majorities of erstwhile Labour supporters in northern constituencies threatening to defect to UKIP (as was), the Party had no choice but to come up with a careful strategy, one based on Labour not being in power and the initiative for Brexiting being in the hands of Theresa May, who was going to make a mess of it because of the perennial division in the Tory Party on Europe (Major's "bastards"). So Corbyn steps forward in a statesmanlike gesture saying he will discuss a better way to implement the 2016 Leave decision. He then "realises" something he must have realised all along, while recognising Labour's one-time support base had still to be persuaded, namely that May would never concede on her "red lines" because the Tories remaining in government depended on continued support from the DUP. Once this was thereby revealed as self-evident he and the Labour front bench could, after due time, exit from the talks claiming Tory intransigence, pointing out that the only options left were 1) Leaving with the backstop; 2) lLeaving with no deal; or 3) Remaining in, but putting these three options to a second referendum. The triple option has the mathenmatical advantage of splitting the result 3 ways, which could then be interpreted any whichway, while Labour could then say, see? The positions underlying in or out are subordinate to the real issues facing most people after 40 years of right wing neoliberal orthodoxy: vote us in and we'll get on with our neo-New Deal programme for re-invigorating the economy. To an electorate swindled by dumbed down media representations of the issues, this will seem like Labour/Corbyn being indecisive, but it isn't by any means, and I would like to ask anyone here what they would have done in Corbyn's shoes: advocate Remain and thus hand implementation of Brexit to the Right? We all need to be a bit more subtle in our approach to all this, imv.

[Richard Barrett]

So, er, it seems as though Labour may refuse to vote for a GE, assuming they win the no deal bill vote.

Which leaves things, if it were possible, even more confused.

Doesn’t it?

I would imagine that the thinking behind refusing to vote for an election on 14 October (which is what seems to be on offer) is that it would be preferable to let the 31 October deadline pass with no Brexit, watch the Tories tear themselves to pieces, and then win an election with a larger majority than might otherwise be the case. That's just a guess off the top of my head though; no doubt there are people who've thought this through more thoroughly and with more knowledge and insight than me. I very much hope we don't have to wait too long for an election though.