Originally posted by cloughie
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The Dictatorship of the Etonariat
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Originally posted by MrGongGong View PostI'm not sure that we are most at threat from those who would seek a united Ireland or those who want to remain British ?
There is so much b*llshit around the way that politicians talk about not having different rules for NI anyway. I suggest they buy a car in NI and then try taxing it in England to dicover that NI isn't part of the UK for that ... and there are probably many many more examples.
The people of NI (and Scotland) who voted (and there again on R4 we had a government minister saying that "the majority of people in the UK voted to leave" without being taken to task or cut off for lying!) wanted to stay in the EU. I guess their views don't matter...
As to your car analogy, whilst it might be correct in practical application is, I fear, misleading to the extent of of its expression that those who might "buy a car in NI and then try taxing it in England to discover that NI isn't part of the UK for that" would discover no such thing because NI IS part of UK; indeed, the full name of UK is "The united kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", so I can only assume that, by "UK" here, you meant "Great Britain".
That said, the fact that NI and Scotland voted for UK to remain an EU member state has indeed largely been ignored by politicians for whom such truths are inconvenient; even more important - and perhaps embarrassing given the location of the seat of UK government - is the fact that London voted for UK to remain in EU almost as heavily as did Scotland, a fact that has prompted some Brexiteers to suggest that said seat of government ought to be relocated to Boston (Lincs., obviously!) and, when I questioned why there, I was advised that this is because it polled the highest percentage of voted in favour of UK leaving EU. It is true, as you say, that the wishes of the NI, Scottish and London electorate have been and continue to be ignored as though they "don't matter"...
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Originally posted by ahinton View PostWhat you write in your second sentence is of course true but it is by no means the only reason why I supported Remain and would do so again were a second referendum to be held. That said, UK will have a capitalist government whether it remains within EU, leave EU with a deal or leave EU without a deal and EU itself is a group of 28 EU member states all of which have such governments, just as the wider Council of Europe is a group of 47 member states (including the 28 EU ones) all of which have such governments, but even states that ostensibly have non-capitalist governments are actually capitalist because they have trading arrangements with other states and do business deals with them; the only way that any state could operate a non-capitalist system would be to eschew all trade deals with other states and, even then business deals would still be done within them.
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I bought a car that was from Enniskillen.
When I went to the post office to tax it I was told that I had to import it first as NI isn't part of the UK for car tax purposes.
IMV this makes a mockery of all those politicians banging on about how we can't have one rule for one place and another for another etc etc
as does the "democratic will " of the people of Diego Garcia
I could go on for hours about Boston and how it was completely run down and squalid before migrant workers decided to live there and open shops, cafes and businesses. Shame that people were duped into thinking that they will get a new hospital and more schools by voting to leave the EU.
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Originally posted by muzzer View PostI find possibly the most depressing aspect of the whole process to date has been the dumbfounded ignorance of most MPs about the legal basis of our membership of the EU and trading relationship with it. Nearly all of them have been learning piecemeal. Second only to the ignorance of the wider populace. But that’s how we’ve ended up where we are.
The exposure of the extent to which it was the UK government not 'the EU' which created unsatisfactory situations has come too late for the millions who've taken what they were told by authority and the press at face value, compounded by now having a generation of MPs who've never had to do their job without that convenient scapegoat/safety blanket.
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Originally posted by oddoneout View PostIgnorance of the EU fullstop, particularly for the last 20/25 years. It's my view that it became convenient for UK government to let 'Brussels' deal with boring regulatory stuff, freeing up time for personal interests and, of course, much activity on the jobsworth work creation front making directives into regulations and then hiding behind 'it's the EU, not us'. For the sake of form, occasional token protests might be made about 'interference'.
The exposure of the extent to which it was the UK government not 'the EU' which created unsatisfactory situations has come too late for the millions who've taken what they were told by authority and the press at face value, compounded by now having a generation of MPs who've never had to do their job without that convenient scapegoat/safety blanket.
Sadly, all too true.
Did anyone not know that we could have had blue passports all along?
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Originally posted by vinteuil View Post.
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... I'm upset, now - bicoz I don't know what your post said.
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The subject of religion as one barrier to change among many arguably belongs elsewhere than here, though one of the bugbears I have is that the left in general have been found on the hop in ceding to the so-called Alt Right's diisingenuously laying claim to the Renaissance to justify their Islamophobia, when their predecessors in fellow thinking, being the equivalents of Flat Earthers, hated the Renaissance.
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Originally posted by Pulcinella View Post
Sadly, all too true.
Did anyone not know that we could have had blue passports all along?
As far as I could make out the only reason any change was required in the first place was because the words 'European Union' needed to be on the cover - nothing about colour of said cover- and if I remember correctly the nudge came several years after the change should have been done.
My passport expired several years ago; when all the referendum fallout started to kick in I did consider renewing it simply to be able to have an EU one(token protest), but now apparently it's a lottery as to what colour you get.Since the new version 'blue' one isn't the same as the old, pre maroon, one and neither colour will have European Union on there doesn't seem much point in shelling out the money. Perhaps I'll be able to get a Scottish passport instead(grandparent rights) if I wait a while!
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My guess that BJ's plan is:
1. Find a way round the Backstop that satisfies Dublin.
2. Take it to the EU summit (bypassing the Commission). Sell it to them as a "Backstop Future Agreement", making everyone happy, and if they don't agree, it would be they who are hurting Ireland and stopping any chance of the withdrawl agreement getting through parliament.
3. Convince almost everybody that No Deal is likely, otherwise the EU Commission will just stonewall on the Backstop.
3. Come back to parliament in late October with This Deal or No Deal. Everything else is swept off the table, including a second referendum..
Make it a Free Vote, preserving democracy for MP's, making them individually responsible if they vote for a No-Deal.
Most Conservative MP's and 80% of Brexit party supporters would probably accept the deal.
Mr. Corbyn would probably accept a free vote on this, as it would not require his party to have any particular policy.
So it may get passed, with BJ as hero of the day, turbocharged ready for the election.
4 The ERG (arch Brexiteers) would not like it, but now lots of them are in government, would they give up their new jobs (or visits to Balmoral) for something that would probably not happen? Carrot and Stick.
5 Farage would not like it. But so what? And if he loses 80% of his supporters, BJ can go into the election (with a manifesto produced in the next month) confident about beating the Brexit party.
If this is the plan, the fuss about closing parliament is a Red Herring, a carefully planned diversion of attention from the Theresa May red lines (no Customs Union) in the agreement that BJ will take to Brussels.Last edited by Beresford; 31-08-19, 06:46.
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