Chomsky on Trump

[teamsaint]

And here on this thread, we have a discussion which has wide implications. It's not focused on the Referendum, or Brexit, or the Last General Election. So here, if people have ideas which go beyond 'Trump is nasty', let's discuss them.

If people have ideas beyond capitalism is the root of all evil; it's immoral to manufacture and sell arms to illiberal regimes like Saudi Arabia - again, let's discuss them.

If the issue is the media and what it chooses to publish and not publish, highlight or downplay: comments, please: your own or those of professional commentators.

Well I take your point, but, for example, ( and not to drag up the referendum again, but just because it is a specific example), I flagged up a Thompson Reuters foundation press report concerning repression of land rights activists with the support of money from EU governments during the referendum, on more than one occasion, and nobody responded. Now I'm sure that the mainly liberal consensus on here, ( of which I would count myself part , even if other people don't think I am) is interested in such issues.But maybe it wan't an immediate enough threat ? or too outside the mainstream of that debate ?

[aeolium]

2. Some may feel the threat represented by, for example, the election of Trump (a wider issue than Trump's degenerate character) is a more immediate threat. Hang on, before we tackle that we have to overthrow capitalism and establish world peace.

Isn't the point that it is absolutely vital to understand why Trump was elected - and elsewhere why similarly nationalist characters are attracting a great deal of support - rather than merely oppose and seek the restoration of the status quo, because Trump and those others are mere representations of discontent? One does not remove the discontent by removing the symbol. And here there are facts which are significant, particularly the massive fact of the 2008 crash which is not a mere passing blip but an event which has had huge ramifications on the economic, social and political stability of many countries, and has undermined if not shattered faith in the political establishment. And, to return to the sphere of "Ideas and Theory", these events have occurred because of the policy implementation of a particular economic theory whose roots can be traced in the writings of economists, most notably those of Hayek, a theory which broke decisively from that of the post-war consensus that lasted for about three decades.

[Beef Oven!]

Isn't the point that it is absolutely vital to understand why Trump was elected - and elsewhere why similarly nationalist characters are attracting a great deal of support - rather than merely oppose and seek the restoration of the status quo, because Trump and those others are mere representations of discontent? One does not remove the discontent by removing the symbol. And here there are facts which are significant, particularly the massive fact of the 2008 crash which is not a mere passing blip but an event which has had huge ramifications on the economic, social and political stability of many countries, and has undermined if not shattered faith in the political establishment. And, to return to the sphere of "Ideas and Theory", these events have occurred because of the policy implementation of a particular economic theory whose roots can be traced in the writings of economists, most notably those of Hayek, a theory which broke decisively from that of the post-war consensus that lasted for about three decades.

How do we discriminate between the competing theories as to why Trump was elected?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Boaty McBoatface?

[french frank]

Isn't the point that it is absolutely vital to understand why Trump was elected - and elsewhere why similarly nationalist characters are attracting a great deal of support - rather than merely oppose and seek the restoration of the status quo …

It is. Of course it is. Removing Trump if the masses in America feel indignant enough to do so is their business. For what that will achieve (but it may be all they feel able to do). Allowing Brexit to steam ahead on the grounds that 'the people have spoken' may well present a similar scenario.

Discussion here is not about changing anything fundamental (possibly minds, but even that isn't likely). But even here we have separate strands - as Beefy says - repesenting the theories. What does 'globalism' imply? What's the connection between the economic policies of Hayek last century and the rise of capitalism in the previous century? How far back do we go to discover the 'roots' of this rise in right-wing populism?

[Conchis]

Trump was elected because his opponent was an over-familiar (and tainted) figure to the American public; compounded with which, she didn't bother to fight a campaign, just reacted to Trump's increasingly outrageous behaviour and general boorishness. It wasn't enough.

The fact that he is a celebrity, in an age when people are dazzled by celebrity, probably helped him. People who think they aren't interested in politics still watch television and Trump has been a feature of many people's living rooms for many years.

That's the way things seemed to work in America: if Alan Sugar decided to run for PM as an Independent, I'm not sure how far he'd get.

[Beef Oven!]

Trump was elected because his opponent was an over-familiar (and tainted) figure to the American public; compounded with which, she didn't bother to fight a campaign, just reacted to Trump's increasingly outrageous behaviour and general boorishness. It wasn't enough.

The fact that he is a celebrity, in an age when people are dazzled by celebrity, probably helped him. People who think they aren't interested in politics still watch television and Trump has been a feature of many people's living rooms for many years.

That's the way things seemed to work in America: if Alan Sugar decided to run for PM as an Independent, I'm not sure how far he'd get.

Can’t have been as simple as that, surely? And don’t you mean Trump’s diminishingly outrageous behaviour?

I’d vote for Alan Sugar (can’t bring myself to call any man Lord, never mind one that was born in the same hospital as me!).

[Richard Barrett]

In a way the reason Trump was elected is very much tied up with the difficulty we all (I think) have in explaining how he could get elected - the competing analyses, the factor of his unapologetic bigotry which may or may not be a distraction from what's "really happening", and so on - while we argue, he goes on the rampage: it happened in the primaries and in the election campaign and shows no sign of letting up now that the Trump administration actually exists.

[french frank]

In a way the reason Trump was elected is very much tied up with the difficulty we all (I think) have in explaining how he could get elected

And (as with Brexit) if we accept that it's the inequalities and protest of the 'left behind', why vote for people who - in the minds of those of us who have the difficulty you describe - seem least likely to care about them?

[Btw, I have removed all the recent posts to this thread of one member - at his request]

[Beef Oven!]

[Btw, I have removed all the recent posts to this thread of one member - at his request]

I must have missed all those Anything interesting?

[teamsaint]

And (as with Brexit) if we accept that it's the inequalities and protest of the 'left behind', why vote for people who - in the minds of those of us who have the difficulty you describe - seem least likely to care about them?

Leave appealed to and was voted plenty of affluent people, and those philosophically attracted to libertarian politics, as well as the " left behind"

I would think that trump's "appeal" is to a similar kind of mix?

[french frank]

Leave appealed to and was voted plenty of affluent people, and those philosophically attracted to libertarian politics, as well as the " left behind"

I would think that trump's "appeal" is to a similar kind of mix?

Yes, but one can understand the comfortably off at least believing it will be in their own interests to vote that way: in many cases, it will. And I think they, at any rate, instinctively feel alienated from those who advance the opposite argument.

[Beef Oven!]

Yes, but one can understand the comfortably off at least believing it will be in their own interests to vote that way: in many cases, it will. And I think they, at any rate, instinctively feel alienated from those who advance the opposite argument.

I’m not so sure that instrumental voting figured that much. Many of us Brexiteers will be worse, off. I certainly will, significantly.

It may have more to do with how we think the UK ought to be governed and what type of business/economic global interface is best.

[aeolium]

It ought to be possible to have a discussion away from partisan positions, irrespective of one's view of Brexit, Trump, etc, in which a longer view is taken about the direction of economics and society. In the 1940s and 1950s the European Community, the United Nations, a Keynesian consensus were all thought-out responses to the cataclysmic political and economic crises of the first part of the C20. Now we have what is essentially a collapse in the economic orthodoxy that has ruled for the past three and a half decades or so, and with it the political and international structures that underpinned that orthodoxy have been severely weakened - whatever "side" you take that much ought to be clear. Something of value that can be recovered from the wreckage is at least the fact that there are people who realise fundamental change is required and are trying to plot out what form that might take.

[french frank]

more to do with how we think the UK ought to be governed and what type of business/economic global interface is best.

Unfortunately, there was a lot more 'baggage' that went with that vote, which also may not have applied to you. I just detailed it, but even though I made it clear I did not associate you with any of that baggage, someone would have been indignant and complained. So I deleted it before I was asked to.

Brexit was a package, just as the EU is a package. You take responsibility for all of it.