Chomsky on Trump

[Lat-Literal]

Useful, if rather brief, item here.

Thank you.

Maybe that does enable him to be regarded as a great businessman then in American terms.

[french frank]

Unless my account has been hacked I'm only aware of making one complaint this year So if that is 1/2 of 95% ?

No, I can confirm, one in 2017. It may seem more to me because I have to spend so much time arguing over any decision with the 'loser', but I can go back over the log and tell you exactly how many 'Reported Post' emails I've had from you, complaints and follow-ups.

[Daniel]

In a world of large political blocs Brexit really means if we cease being an important member of one large bloc we have to accept joining or more realistically being dominated by some other large bloc.

Which underlines the conundrum we seem to be in, of choice with no choice at all.

Essentially we're given the option of governance by proxy of the corporations, or the highway. As corporations squeeze tighter and tighter to maximise profit, people's desperation causes them to consider more outlandish voting prospects to try and regain a sense of security and familiarity which, forgive my hyperbole, seems not terribly different from the final days of the Weimar Republic.
But with traditional options on the left now apparently eroded, and government and media seeming to be not much more than mouthpieces for the ruling corpocracy, I currently can't see anything that seems likely to stop the encroachment on our public services and general wider ravagement, of an increasingly powerful industrial sector. I wish I could.

[Beef Oven!]

I find it mildly fascinating how some people the world over (and in the forum) are so loud and shouty about Trump’s alleged misogyny, yet are completely silent on the daily atrocities that are taking place against woman in many countries whose governments seem to be either not lifting a finger to prevent it (e.g India’s men’s proclivity for raping their women) or actually actively encouraging it (stoning of alleged female adulterers, many of whom are actually rape victims, in Saudi Arabia, or by the Taliban and ISIS. Hanging in Iran (recently commuted from stoning)). I’ll not list out all the other examples of misogyny that are carried out daily, but are not commented on.

We have a thread bout Trump and plenty of coarse and insulting posts about him, including post #140 that leads us to more foul language. But complete silence on the aforementioned. Not even a single post on the whole forum, never mind a thread.

What causes it to be like this? Is it cowardice? Are we scared to criticise certain types of people? Is it easy to say things about our leaders in the west because we can sleep safely in our beds at night knowing that we are (nearly) out of reach of the merciless, barbaric, inhuman people who are the real, committed misogynists? Maybe we just have double standards. My best guess is all this is "never about what it’s about" and we don’t really care about misogyny.

[Richard Barrett]

Trump’s alleged misogyny

Alleged?????? How much more evidence do you need than has already been made public?

This thread turned towards a discussion of Trump, not all those other atrocities you mention. In case you hadn't noticed, this individual has just become the most powerful person in the world. If he is a misogynist (which he clearly is) his ascendancy legitimises misogyny not just in the USA but in all those places where the USA is influential, viz. almost everywhere. The damage this could cause is certainly comparable with the examples you cite. And don't forget that he isn't just a misogynist but a racist and homophobe as well (to name only these). And finally don't forget that he was first cited in this discussion as someone who is certain to take full advantage of the May government's desperation for a trade deal with the USA and propose something that will make the UK the losers in his "art of the deal" game. I agree completely with MrGG that he ought not to be treated or spoken of like just another US president.

[Beef Oven!]

Alleged?????? How much more evidence do you need than has already been made public?

This thread turned towards a discussion of Trump, not all those other atrocities you mention. In case you hadn't noticed, this individual has just become the most powerful person in the world. If he is a misogynist (which he clearly is) his ascendancy legitimises misogyny not just in the USA but in all those places where the USA is influential, viz. almost everywhere. The damage this could cause is certainly comparable with the examples you cite. And don't forget that he isn't just a misogynist but a racist and homophobe as well (to name only these). And finally don't forget that he was first cited in this discussion as someone who is certain to take full advantage of the May government's desperation for a trade deal with the USA and propose something that will make the UK the losers in his "art of the deal" game. I agree completely with MrGG that he ought not to be treated or spoken of like just another US president.

That’s irrelevant. Ignore what I have written, if you wish. The ambivalence to the very real issues of misogyny and our silence on it is staggering.




.

[teamsaint]

There has been a whole series of US presidents , including Democrats, with appalling records on lethal military intervention, destabilisation, support of regimes of the type that Beef Oven ! mentions , and support of financial systems that systematically divert wealth to the already wealthy and the banking sector.

No problem in lumping those presidents in with trump in my mind. Indeed,their policies might be seen as laying down the conditions for his election.

[Lat-Literal]

Some of the US public may have sensed that the election of a woman would be considered overly challenging by competitors, opponents and enemies and even a red rag to an E European, Middle Eastern, N Korean or Chinese bull. That Mr Trump was elected may be a reflection of those concerns rather than being anything with the substance of values as they have been known. The Democrats might wish to consider that point when Scarlett Johansson puts her name forward for the Presidency in two years time. Or they might not.

[Beef Oven!]

There has been a whole series of US presidents , including Democrats, with appalling records on lethal military intervention, destabilisation, support of regimes of the type that Beef Oven ! mentions , and support of financial systems that systematically divert wealth to the already wealthy and the banking sector.

No problem in lumping those presidents in with trump in my mind. Indeed,their policies might be seen as laying down the conditions for his election.

Indeed. From my studies and reading scholarly books on Bill Clinton, I would take Trump over him any day, morally speaking. But we don’t get heated about Bill. As I said, it’s not about what it’s about.

[Darkbloom]

I find it mildly fascinating how some people the world over (and in the forum) are so loud and shouty about Trump’s alleged misogyny, yet are completely silent on the daily atrocities that are taking place against woman in many countries whose governments seem to be either not lifting a finger to prevent it (e.g India’s men’s proclivity for raping their women) or actually actively encouraging it (stoning of alleged female adulterers, many of whom are actually rape victims, in Saudi Arabia, or by the Taliban and ISIS. Hanging in Iran (recently commuted from stoning)). I’ll not list out all the other examples of misogyny that are carried out daily, but are not commented on.

We have a thread bout Trump and plenty of coarse and insulting posts about him, including post #140 that leads us to more foul language. But complete silence on the aforementioned. Not even a single post on the whole forum, never mind a thread.

What causes it to be like this? Is it cowardice? Are we scared to criticise certain types of people? Is it easy to say things about our leaders in the west because we can sleep safely in our beds at night knowing that we are (nearly) out of reach of the merciless, barbaric, inhuman people who are the real, committed misogynists? Maybe we just have double standards. My best guess is all this is "never about what it’s about" and we don’t really care about misogyny.

In almost any situation like this you can make the argument, 'well, what about...?' and go on to name something else that is worthier of scrutiny and/or action. You are assuming that anyone who comments about Trump doesn't care about those other situations, but where is the evidence for that assumption? You seem to believe that people only have a limited number of sympathies, and if they are concerned about Trump then they aren't bothered about anything else.

Like many people, I'm worried that the leader of the free world appears to be pure raging id, flailing about in all directions as the mood takes him. It's only natural that people are focusing on this right now, isn't it?

[Beef Oven!]

In almost any situation like this you can make the argument, 'well, what about...?' and go on to name something else that is worthier of scrutiny and/or action.

And that is not what I’m doing, if you read my post.

You seem to believe that people only have a limited number of sympathies, and if they are concerned about Trump then they aren't bothered about anything else.

That’s not what I believe - and you can see that from my post.

Like many people, I'm worried that the leader of the free world appears to be pure raging id, flailing about in all directions as the mood takes him. It's only natural that people are focusing on this right now, isn't it?

It seems illogically selective.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think the difference between Trump and the very real atrocities against women is the fact that DT has bragged about his derision and ill-treatment of women, and yet has won the presidency, albeit with a minority vote of 2,800,000.

[Serial_Apologist]

Aolium's link below, and in his #104, might get us back to a consideration of the deeper issues at work in the present situation.

This is the final paragraph of that Streeck essay on the New Left Review website:

"In summary, capitalism, as a social order held together by a promise of boundless collective progress, is in critical condition. Growth is giving way to secular stagnation; what economic progress remains is less and less shared; and confidence in the capitalist money economy is leveraged on a rising mountain of promises that are ever less likely to be kept. Since the 1970s, the capitalist centre has undergone three successive crises, of inflation, public finances and private debt. Today, in an uneasy phase of transition, its survival depends on central banks providing it with unlimited synthetic liquidity. Step by step, capitalism’s shotgun marriage with democracy since 1945 is breaking up. On the three frontiers of commodification—labour, nature and money—regulatory institutions restraining the advance of capitalism for its own good have collapsed, and after the final victory of capitalism over its enemies no political agency capable of rebuilding them is in sight. The capitalist system is at present stricken with at least five worsening disorders for which no cure is at hand: declining growth, oligarchy, starvation of the public sphere, corruption and international anarchy. What is to be expected, on the basis of capitalism’s recent historical record, is a long and painful period of cumulative decay: of intensifying frictions, of fragility and uncertainty, and of a steady succession of ‘normal accidents’—not necessarily but quite possibly on the scale of the global breakdown of the 1930s."

I think Trump's election is one of those "normal accidents" of which we can expect more.

I'll try and get back to this tomorrow.

[Richard Barrett]

Ignore what I have written, if you wish. The ambivalence to the very real issues of misogyny and our silence on it is staggering.

(a) Thanks, I will. If you don't think it's significant that such a person has just assumed the position he has that's up to you. (b) But not so staggering that you actually mentioned it before people started posting about Trump! The mistake you make here is to imagine that what people post on this forum represents the whole or even a significant part of their opinions on issues such as this. You might just as well ask: why is everyone here posting about insignificant things like classical music when there's so much injustice in the world? Er, because that's what this forum is principally for. Nobody spends their whole life on it.

[french frank]

I find it mildly fascinating how some people the world over (and in the forum) are so loud and shouty about Trump’s alleged misogyny, yet are completely silent on the daily atrocities that are taking place against woman in many countries …

Let us remember, the thread is about Chomsky's view of Trump. It was started, I presume, as a particularly topical subject. I suppose it is inevitable that it will end up as members posting what they think about Trump (or Chomsky or Bill Clinton v. Trump). And if one can go no deeper into the issue than that, it is at least giving us the benefit of one's "reckons".

The way the current events are related to each other - and to many other areas of life is sobering. An anecdote:

I had an email from a (previously unknown) Radio 3 listener, saying that he and his wife had been "driven mad" by the "down-grading" of Radio 3 and if there was anything they could do to help (Friends of Radio 3) they would be pleased to do so. And bring back Tom Crowe and Patricia Hughes …

I explained that we were currently arranging a bit of reorganisation but (standard reply these days) I thought the current controller had introduced some excellent programming, that most of the issues people had related to the legacy he'd inherited, we were optimistic, and so on.

To this I had a lengthy reply about the way the Liberal, Progressive, Marxist, Socialist, Trotskyist tendency had penetrated 'all our institutions, whether it is the so-called 'universities' and schools, the civil service, the NHS, the police, public schools, the EU, the established political parties, the newspapers, cinemas, the churches and so on' and that standards had dropped with 'the common man elevated to jobs and skills he is not capable of' but thank goodness now he was feeling more optimistic with the success of a 'small besmirched' party in the European elections [sic] in this country, "despite the torrent of lies and scare stories, [from] the Remainers in the referendum'.

"This avalanche over the decades has seemed unstoppable and like you, [] along with a number of other people, I have tried to fight its progress, largely with little success. The opposition has been clever and sustains a vast 'welfare' system which includes 'free' schooling and 'free' health which has removed the survival instinct."

He had an unusual name, I knew where he was from and I did a bit of investigation. Last year he had stood for election as the National Front candidate.

Until now I have never had such a communication from indignant Radio 3 listeners: I have disagreed with them but reading what - to me at least - was horrifying seemed part of the times we're living through. And, yes, hearing him praise the rise of the right-wing parties across Europe was frightening. Hearing him condemn 'free' health (think Obamacare) and 'free' schooling, and 'welfare' did make me think of Trump. And like it or not, Beef Oven, it made me think about European history over the past century: dictatorship, racism, hatred - and worse - all spread by lies. Lies of the kind that Trump peddles everyday. Now he's taken on the media and accuses them of lies.

Whatever you think about Bill Clinton v. Trump, the difference is that millions support Trump knowing the kind of man he is.