Chomsky on Trump

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18009

    mrgg

    Interesting! Where does that data and presentation come from?

    A few issues.

    1. Doesn't include 9/11 which might put some of the numbers up. That incident was outside the 10 year smoothing period.

    2. Only seems to count US citizens, but the numbers for some incidents would be higher if they included people who were killed/injured who happened to be in America, or who were non US citizens who happened to be killed by a targeted attack on US interests.

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    • MrGongGong
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 18357

      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
      mrgg

      Interesting! Where does that data and presentation come from?
      The first is from Mr Bragg
      and the second is from a friend in the USA (not sure of the reliability of the numbers BUT who needs experts anyway ?)

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      • Lat-Literal
        Guest
        • Aug 2015
        • 6983

        Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
        The first is from Mr Bragg
        and the second is from a friend in the USA (not sure of the reliability of the numbers BUT who needs experts anyway ?)
        Mr William Bragg of Burton Bradstock?

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        • MrGongGong
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 18357

          Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
          Mr William Bragg of Burton Bradstock?
          The very same


          (There are some very dangerous people with their grubby mitts on the controls http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7549851.html )

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          • Stunsworth
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 1553

            Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
            1. Doesn't include 9/11 which might put some of the numbers up. That incident was outside the 10 year smoothing period
            The 9/11 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt. None of those countries are on the proscribed list of countries. However President Trump has business interests in all three, perhaps that was a factor in them not being on the list.
            Steve

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            • Beef Oven!
              Ex-member
              • Sep 2013
              • 18147

              Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
              The very same


              (There are some very dangerous people with their grubby mitts on the controls http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7549851.html )
              Paul Nuttall is a good working class lad from Bootle in Merseyside. What the UKIP leader said was ....

              ”If waterboarding ensures that we save a number of lives in this country or in America because someone admits to something that is going to happen in terms of a terrorist attack, well through gritted teeth I'd probably be OK with it.

              “If someone admits that a terrorist attack is going to happen and saves the lives of innocent individuals then I think maybe it's a price worth paying … if a British government was elected and said it was required to ensure it saved innocent people's live then sometimes you have to go that extra mile.”

              A very realistic position for UKIP to take on the matter.

              Here’s the interview that the story in your link is based on.

              What "controls" are you accusing the UKIP leader of having his “grubby mitts on”?



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              • MrGongGong
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 18357

                Torture is totally unacceptable and illegal
                Whether it's fanatics in the desert or people in the west
                makes no difference
                just as chopping the heads of your "enemies" is totally unacceptable regardless of whether you want to sell them weapons or not

                Comment

                • Beef Oven!
                  Ex-member
                  • Sep 2013
                  • 18147

                  Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                  Torture is totally unacceptable and illegal
                  Whether it's fanatics in the desert or people in the west
                  makes no difference
                  just as chopping the heads of your "enemies" is totally unacceptable regardless of whether you want to sell them weapons or not
                  In reality, it’s not as simple as it is in theory. There is a real moral dilemma here. That’s what the UKIP leader Paul Nuttall is commenting on.

                  Comment

                  • Pabmusic
                    Full Member
                    • May 2011
                    • 5537

                    First time I've looked at this thread. Why is it allowed? I used to enjoy the political threads, but they were all stopped because they were ... Political. How does this one exist?

                    Comment

                    • MrGongGong
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 18357



                      It's fairly straightforward really

                      Comment

                      • french frank
                        Administrator/Moderator
                        • Feb 2007
                        • 30249

                        Originally posted by Pabmusic View Post
                        First time I've looked at this thread. Why is it allowed? I used to enjoy the political threads, but they were all stopped because they were ... Political. How does this one exist?
                        The reason is that it is on 'Ideas and Theory' and the original post was about Chomsky's ideas about Trump.

                        I agree that it has become 'political' with a handful of people adopting their usual stances and making predictable (for them) statements.

                        But moving on to the question of torture, its absolute morality &c seems to me to move back towards Ideas. The value of the thread depends on the value of what the individual contributors say - which at times is not much. That verges on to Quality Control …
                        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                        Comment

                        • Pabmusic
                          Full Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 5537

                          Originally posted by french frank View Post
                          The reason is that it is on 'Ideas and Theory' and the original post was about Chomsky's ideas about Trump.

                          I agree that it has become 'political' with a handful of people adopting their usual stances and making predictable (for them) statements.

                          But moving on to the question of torture, its absolute morality &c seems to me to move back towards Ideas. The value of the thread depends on the value of what the individual contributors say - which at times is not much. That verges on to Quality Control …

                          Comment

                          • Beef Oven!
                            Ex-member
                            • Sep 2013
                            • 18147

                            Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                            Saying torture is brutal and wrong is straightforward and most people would agree. But if its use can prevent another more wicked and cruel act that will affect a much bigger number of people, its use might be justified. That, IMO, is a straightforward ironing-out of the moral perplexity of state-used torture. But of course it’s only the starting point of the discussion. How do we put these things into the balance? Who decides? What are the checks?

                            Comment

                            • Dave2002
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 18009

                              Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                              Torture is totally unacceptable and illegal
                              Whether it's fanatics in the desert or people in the west
                              makes no difference
                              just as chopping the heads of your "enemies" is totally unacceptable regardless of whether you want to sell them weapons or not
                              There is a concept here about the value of people's lives - including one's own.

                              Anyone who denies the value of people's lives - to them, or anyone else, is perfectly capable of killing, maiming, torturing other people for any reason (or none) whatsoever.

                              Moral problems arise for those who believe that lives are valuable. A utilitarian view might be that if more lives could be saved by some action (torture, assassination etc.) than otherwise, then it could be permitted. That would assume that all lives are equally valuable.

                              Some might hold that not all lives are equally valuable, so a greater or lesser threshold for the action (torture, killing etc.) could be applied by the use of such utilitarian processes.

                              Religious people hold various different views.

                              Christians and pacifists might hold the view that it is never right to do the "bad" actions.

                              Some religions might hold to the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" doctrine, but that causes a problem for dealing with people who are "merely suspected" of being about to commit an atrocity. Since they have not actually committed the "bad" action, then torture would not be allowed. On the other hand if such people tortured others, then it would presumably be OK to torture them.

                              Comment

                              • french frank
                                Administrator/Moderator
                                • Feb 2007
                                • 30249

                                It may simply be that self-imposed 'rules' governing morality, equality, democracy, truthfulness and such always put you at a disavantage compared with those who reject those rules. How far is it permissible to break your own rules in order to oppose/fight those who persistently disregard them?
                                It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                                Comment

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