Paris, anyone?

[P. G. Tipps]

No, finding out the facts of the matter is always the only way of getting at the truth. There is no way of knowing the extent to which "gut instinct" consists of received wisdom or comes from some other origin, because by definition it hasn't involved any careful consideration. At various points in history, "gut instinct" told people that the world is flat, that dark-skinned people are inferior and deserve nothing more than to be slaves, and many other example of ignorance and prejudice.

On the contrary, I humbly submit that it was 'received wisdom' that told people the earth was flat and that dark-skinned people are inferior rather than any particular 'gut instinct'.

Maybe much the same applies to 'a woman's intuition' as to 'gut instinct'. These feelings may not always be wholly reliable, of course, but at least are based on personal experience and might finally get at the truth.

The point here is that these instincts/intuitions are used in the absence of established fact (truth), not in any way to replace that, but to actively seek it!

Maybe this intriguing subject should have it's own thread ... ?

[Richard Barrett]

These feelings may not always be wholly reliable

Right. And they give you no clue in any particular case as to whether they are or not, apart from, er, "gut feeling".

[MrGongGong]

These feelings may not always be wholly reliable, of course, but at least are based on personal experience and might finally get at the truth.

Feelings ARE unreliable.
F M Alexander found this out and the method he devised to teach others has had a profound influence on many of the musicians and performers we listen to.

“Everyone wants to be right, but no one stops to consider if their idea of right is right.”

[ahinton]

On the contrary, I humbly submit that it was 'received wisdom' that told people the earth was flat and that dark-skinned people are inferior rather than any particular 'gut instinct'.

Maybe much the same applies to 'a woman's intuition' as to 'gut instinct'. These feelings may not always be wholly reliable, of course, but at least are based on personal experience and might finally get at the truth.

The point here is that these instincts/intuitions are used in the absence of established fact (truth), not in any way to replace that, but to actively seek it!

Once again, you avoid the issue that gut instinct varies from person to person whereas facts remain facts; applying and seeking to rely upon a multiplicity of contrasting gut instincts in order actively to seek facts - i.e. the truth - is surely on a Haydn to nuttin'. Moreover, the notion that "established fact" is "absent" is a contradiction in terms; how can a fact be established in its own absence? Furthermore, the very question of the alleged absence of facts is itself open to question; facts are there to be found (and not by reliance upon gut instincts), though some might want to ignore them at and for their own convenience and others might choose to conceal them for like reasons.

[P. G. Tipps]

Right. And they give you no clue in any particular case as to whether they are or not, apart from, er, "gut feeling".

That may well be termed as 'received wisdom', but not necessarily the genuine Seeker of Truth's 'gut instinct'.

A police detective may well inform others that he/she originally pursued the likely culprit of a crime based on his/her 'gut instinct' and then the facts were eventually uncovered by that very process.

'Gut Instinct' is not necessarily incompatible with 'fact' and, to be fair, neither is 'received wisdom,' though the latter is derived from the say-so of others (whose motives might be suspect) and not from one's own experience-led feelings and thoughts.

[MrGongGong]

That may well be termed as 'received wisdom', but not necessarily the genuine Seeker of Truth's 'gut instinct'.

A police detective may well inform others that he/she originally pursued the likely culprit of a crime based on his/her 'gut instinct' and then the facts were eventually uncovered by that very process.

'Gut Instinct' is not necessarily incompatible with 'fact' and, to be fair, neither is 'received wisdom,' though the latter is derived from the say-so of others (whose motives might be suspect) and not from one's own experience-led feelings and thoughts.

I'd just stop if I were you.


A police detective might well stroke a lucky rabbits foot and commune with the God of stilton

You seem to have an idea that YOUR experience is reliable, it's NOT.

[Flosshilde]

A police detective may well inform others that he/she originally pursued the likely culprit of a crime based on his/her 'gut instinct' and then the facts were eventually uncovered by that very process.

A police detective might decide, based on 'gut instinct', that a certain person is guilty, & then look for evidence (the facts) that support that belief, ignoring (or even suppressing) evidence that does not and that might even indicate that someone else is guilty.

It has happened, you know.

Was it gut instinct, received wisdom or God that told the Pope that the sun went round the earth (despite evidence to thye contrary)?

[Beef Oven!]

Feelings ARE unreliable.
F M Alexander found this out and the method he devised to teach others has had a profound influence on many of the musicians and performers we listen to.

Facts are unreliable. They Often turn out to be false rather than true. Facts vary over time.

“Everyone wants to be right, but no one stops to consider if their idea of right is right.”

It's about truth, not right or wrong. The way some people present the facts, makes it hard to get to the truth.

[Beef Oven!]

I'd just stop if I were you.

GangsterGong

A police detective might well stroke a lucky rabbits foot and commune with the God of stilton

You seem to have an idea that YOUR experience is reliable, it's NOT.

Don't you believe it, sunshine. Your gut instincts may be based on received wisdom and prayers to the Chinese water god, but others have far better gut instincts than you.

[MrGongGong]

It's about truth, not right or wrong. The way some people present the facts, makes it hard to get to the truth.

Coming from you (% of EU laws) that's hilarious

[french frank]

I'm getting a sense of déjà vu here.

[ahinton]

'Gut Instinct' is not necessarily incompatible with 'fact' and, to be fair, neither is 'received wisdom,' though the latter is derived from the say-so of others (whose motives might be suspect) and not from one's own experience-led feelings and thoughts.

What is it (maybe your gut instinct?) that determines your evident inability/unwillingness to accept the fact that gut instincts vary from person to person whereas facts do not? If gut instincts were common to all, we'd all like (and dislike) the same music, the same food and drink, the same...and, in case you'd not noticed, we don't.

Yes, truths - facts - can be and indeed are distorted in their presentation and interpretation, but that's a different issue; facts are facts, whereas those who wish to corrupt their presentation to suit their own agendas merely present their view as though it is wholly factual. Received wisdom is sometimes dispensed by such people.

[MrGongGong]

I'm getting a sense of déjà vu here.

Sorry

I guess I need to defer to those with superior 'instincts'

[ahinton]

Sorry

I guess I need to defer to those with superior 'instincts'

...or perhaps superior 'guts'...

[P. G. Tipps]

My 'gut instinct' informs me that french frank is somewhat uncomfortable with the way this thread is proceeding though I have received such wisdom from no other source other than my gut. Of course my gut could be quite wrong as others here continue to insist ....

However, on personal gut experience, I'll swiftly move on!